Minor board reorganization and Songcrafters' philosophy/direction.

[FuzzFace]

how about a downloadable hologram that explains everything, looks good in a bikini and cooks a mean bacon and eggs, is that too much to ask.

or makes house granola

[T.C. Elliott]

As an alternative, why not have one board for finished music and have tags for what is 100% member certified and Covers and everything else? Then make a songs list that you can sort. Ie, not necessarily a separate board to post, but a heading you can click that lists all the songs that you can sort by post date/time, most recent comment, cover tags, or member name, or a bunch of things, really. (There are some sites that do a great job of this.)

That's a great idea. Unfortunately, the software this site runs on doesn't have any such tagging feature, so I'd have to spend a lot of time modifying the code to make this possible.

How about a self tag? This might be more work than the alternative, but when posting a song you could have a checklist that the poster could select that would add a specific song to the database. Just thinking out loud here.

If I have backing vox from a friend in London (harmony vox on the chorus) does it negate it's DIY status?

If she's not a member, then yes. But you can post it in the General board instead.

I guess this is my main complaint, and I'll leave it be after this. If I write and record a song and hire a backup singer to do harmony vox, isn't it still my creative vision and my song? If I use a plug in or effect and change my male voice to a female sounding voice (I've actually heard this done, although not 100% convincingly) it's okay to post in DIY, but if I have a friend come in and sing half of four lines in the chorus it isn't. If I use a synth that I program it's DIY, but if someone else hits the button after I've programmed it, it isn't.

After typing that out I've pretty much convinced myself to your point of view. I see it, I understand it. I'm not 100% with it, but I'm a lot closer after this discussion (and your very thoughtful and considerate reply, 64)

Ultimately I think the motives are as pure as they could possibly be. I'm willing to give a shot. I bet it turns out better than it is now. Thanks again Admin staff, and you especially you, 64guitars.

[64Guitars]

I still don't see the reason we need to have any song posts separated.

Really? It's quite simple. There are far more posts than people have time to read and more songs than they have time to listen to. Some sort of filtering is required so that people can read and listen to the posts that they're most interested in. The easiest form of filtering to implement is to classify posts into separate boards. Choosing the right number of boards and the right classifications is tricky but we're doing our best.

We all have varying degrees of ability. People's use of backers is NOT a negative thing, and those that use them should not be made to feel that way.

Backing tracks and midi files are wonderful learning and practice tools. I have 20 to 30 midi files loaded into my Yamaha keyboard which I often play along with for practice. But I wouldn't dream of recording my practice sessions and posting them here. I wouldn't want to bore our members with that any more than I'd want to make them listen to recordings of me practicing my scales.

For the few people here who are passionate about posting backing tracks and getting feedback on them, I'd suggest that they try to find another site with members who share their enthusiasm. I recently noticed that the forum at guitarbackingtrack.com allows its members to post songs they've made with backing tracks. Why not check that out?

http://www.guitarbackingtrack.com/forum/index.php

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that anyone should leave Songcrafters and I hope that you'll all remain members here. But it's clear to me that our members will never share your enthusiasm for backing tracks, so what's the point in trying to convert them? It's a losing battle and it will only frustrate and anger you. Why not satisfy your craving for feedback on your backing track songs by joining a forum with like-minded backing track enthusiasts instead?

[alfstone]

...just wondering...are these decisions already taken or is there room for a poll about it for the members?

Alfredo

[T.C. Elliott]

...just wondering...are these decisions already taken or is there room for a poll about it for the members?

Alfredo

I'm not admin, so take it for what it's worth. This discussion is where we get input. Unless a very, very strong argument is made otherwise, these changes will be implemented at least on a trial basis. There will always be the option of going back to what we have now or something in between.
     As I've posted, I've a few reservations, but the more I think about it, the more I want to see how the new boards will work.

[Flash Harry]

...just wondering...are these decisions already taken or is there room for a poll about it for the members?

Alfredo

the decisions are not yet made. The admin team - me mainly - were concerned about the legal aspects of using copyrighted material, after all its our asses on the line (my ass because it's my name and address on the site registration documentation)  and in trying to mitigate the risk of possible legal action we were discussing the use of, in particular, backers and samples. These proposals came out of the discussions (we don't actually converse over the phone or have any sort of speech type of communication so it's a bit protracted) and that's the reason for the changed propsals.

I don't particularly like backers, but I'll defend the right of anyone to post a solo over a backer here. I don't want to exclude them. I just don't want to find the local Plod on my doorstep at 6am asking me to come for a cup of tea and a chat.

So that's what it's about. We will take all of the suggestions and comments into consideration when we make the decision. We may not change it. We may change it slightly adding in ideas that have been supplied here. I just don't know until this thread has run its course and 64Guitars, Cuthbert, OldRottenHead and I have had a chance to debate it.

No decision has been made.

[guitarron]

ouch, my head is hurting ;-)

i'm down with the hologram idea bb

Thank you administrators for your tireless efforts to make this site what it is

[hooper]

Just wanted to take the time to say that I/we truly appreciate all the work you good folks put into the site. Whatever direction the site heads in, I know it will be well considered.

Peace.

Blooby

Double ditto!

Also, Mike.....
'The admin team - me mainly - were concerned about the legal aspects of using copyrighted material, after all its our asses on the line (my ass because it's my name and address on the site registration documentation)  and in trying to mitigate the risk of possible legal action we were discussing the use of, in particular, backers and samples.' 

I think you are right to be aware of that.  But I'm surprised that the focus is on the backers and samples rather than the tons of copyrighted cover songs stored on this site without the authors permission.  It sure looks to me like that is where the biggest exposure is.

Was just wondering about that, in a Platonical way...   
You know, I love cover songs.

Appreciate you, dude!

Hooper
 

[alfstone]

Dear FlashHarry, your concerns about legal aspects of the whole thing are absolutely RIGHT, in my (but I think not only my) opinion.

I'm really sorry for my bad English, but I hope that what I'm going to write will have a sense for all of you.

Now, I was saying, there are several levels of the problem.

- Probably no one will remember, but one of my first posts here was more or less: did the site ever have copyright problems?....because I think that every time we post a cover, I don't think we all obtain the permission from the copyright owner to do that (at least, I never did). But most of us we do post covers, or most of the jukeboxes would not exist at all: I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but *probably* the whole Covers section is more or less illegal.
And this *could* be a problem for the web site admins. The MAIN problem, by my point of view.

- Backing tracks. Here, in my opinion, there a certain degree of confusion between backing tracks (quite often copyright protected) and, on the other side, loops, auto-accompaniment softwares and arrangers. All files produced with all of these are, AFAIK, all royalty-free products. In some cases it's required a permission, if there is a commercial use of these files, but of course this is not our situation. And anyway I think that respect to the first point, this is much less *dangerous* for the web admis.

- In front of these problems, sorry, but I can't understand the solution. General section, DIY sections...what does it change? What has it to do with the legal question? The above issues are legal, and require a LEGAL solution. And I don't see how a distinction between "pure" and "not-so-pure" songs can someway solve the problem: it has nothing to do with that, it makes only a "value chart". I don't agree with it by principle, but I'm ready to accept it, since it's right that every decision about a web site is in the hands of its management/admins.
But I repeat, I don't see how these changes can solve the legal problems that are the base of the changes themselves.

My two cents...

Alfredo

...OK, OK, my English is awful....

[Bluesberry]

i'm down with the hologram idea bb

looks like the hologram idea is gaining traction..........it has legs.............it will fly..............hang on to this idea..............run with it...............hmmmmmmbacon and eggs........