I had a bit of a heated discussion with someone recently,and my blood is still boiling from it.
They said if we can't read music, we aren't musicians - do you agree??
My view is that I know some people who can read music but the music they produce is of a lesser standard than many a good player who can't read.
For example - Manitas de Plata a Spanish Flemenco player, who can't even read or write - now he is a musician - search for him on Youtube, even playing now well into his 80's.
There is such a thing as a natural in any field.
The theory was invented to explain what these people are doing.
Poppy Cock! That someone is full of shit!
A lot of great cooks/chefs don't read cookbooks. The proof is in the resulting food/song.
Reading music and playing music are two completely different things. Its like reading a book or speaking. If you can't read are you still a speaker when you speak. You can speak words even if you can't read them. I say the musician is the dude who plays/makes music.
Music doesn't originate from a page. It originates from inside a person. The page is just a storage medium for sharing the music so that others can learn it. But it's by no means the only method of learning a piece of music. Many musicians do just fine learning music by listening to it and playing by ear. It's the end result that makes you a musician; not the method you use to learn a song.
Musical notation was invented so that the music created by real artists could be played by lesser mortals.
Just get your "friend" to check out any of the definitions of musician - reading music does not come into it. This is the most popular on the web "One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music." You don't have to be able to read music to compose it or perform it.
Cheers,
Nigel
How bout you bring up Stevie Wonder in your next conversation with him!
This is Manitas de Plata in 1975 and still playing at 89 years of age.
Is he cheating as he uses a capo??? or is that another thread.....???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_WZZqyMoI
Quote from: Gritter on December 06, 2010, 03:19:23 PMHow bout you bring up Stevie Wonder in your next conversation with him!
Exactly.
I think what I'm hearing is that the consensus on this forum is that whoever said that is a snot.
^
All of you can have the high road.
I try like hell to stay even tempered, and with age, I have mellowed. There are a few triggers which lead to very negative interactions on my behalf. The main triggers are somebody picking on a weaker individual or a friend. A situation like this nearly cost me a few years of my life, which I'm in no way proud of.
Elitist attitudes grate me to my core. I curb my inner desire to allow venom to pass from my lips towards elitists, but always manage to fail at controlling it completely. At this moment I've had no less than fifty thoughts on things to say to the assbag you described Geoff.
I wish I were the guy who is never affected by adverse situations, but its not in my DNA. Instead, I'm the guy who followed a dangerous driver 3 miles to where he stopped. I gave him the option of a lecture or an ass-whooping.
I'm with you on "elitist attitudes" Tony. I'm particularly exasperated by folk who misguidedly destroy creativity in vulnerable individuals (people young or old who are starting out in exploring an artistic outlet).
In music this includes:
- People who tell parents that they must get Johny/Jane lessons when they start showing an interest in an instrument
- Parents or other adult relatives who tell a child to stop messing about (improvising) on their instrument and do their practise properly
- Guitarists who tell fellow guitarists that they need to know the modes in order to improvise "properly"
- Guitarists who tell fellow guitarists that they need to be able to read TAB in order to be a "proper" guitarist
... the list is endless.
What I find horribly frustrating is that, in most cases, there is usually an element of useful (and truthful) information in these statements, obscured by a false black and white judgement over what you "should" do.
For example, formal lessons can be very helpful to get you moving fast on an instrument. But there are many very good musicians who never had formal lessons. Lessons are not essential and, because of their very nature and relationship to "school", might actually stifle all motivation, desire, confidence, and, therefore, creativity. The need for lessons depends entirely on the individual and what they want to achieve. Lessons might be good at the outset, might be good later, or they might not be needed at all if the individual has a good ear and is in an enviroment where he/she can see good examples or share knowledge with others.
Those of us who are experienced enough to see through each statement are fine. But then we can see that the novice who is struggling for facts immediately grasps the only black and white rule they can see in the statement: "I must have lessons". So a potential "natural" goes to lessons, struggles with the methods on offer, decides he or she is not musical.... and never does it again... I weep... :'(
I utterly LOATHE anything or anybody that causes someone else to think that he or she is not creative >:(
Ask this "if we can't read music, we aren't musicians" person if they've ever killed someone. If the answer is no, tell them that they're obviously not a human being. Then tell them that this statement is as preposterous as the one they insist on making.
What are you if you're not a musician? When can you be called a musician? When you know that that dot means C? Or when you can play Beethovens 5th?
64 hit it spot on. no more to add.
Quote from: Tony W on December 06, 2010, 09:42:05 PMInstead, I'm the guy who followed a dangerous driver 3 miles to where he stopped. I gave him the option of a lecture or an ass-whooping.
And what was his choice Tony?
Quote from: Gritter on December 06, 2010, 03:19:23 PMHow bout you bring up Stevie Wonder in your next conversation with him!
Driving in to work this morning I finally got this one...Hahahahahaha...Stevie Wonder...thats rich Sandy...I am slow sometimes....They were playing Very superstitious on the radio, and the guy mentioned that he played keyboards, vocals and drums...I was thinking how hard it must be for a blind guy to play drums...then it hit me...Hahahahahahaha...I almost went off the damn road from laughing...Stevie Wonder can't read music...Hahahahahahahahaha...good one Sandy.
im sure i read somewhere stevie wonder can read music in braille form , had a look and found this interesting discussion
http://macca.devstars.eu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2340507&sid=4e29aa239bf3e08ef648808c33c30462
Oddly, or maybe not, I've never considered myself a musician. I just like making happy noise.
I was in music shop not so long ago and eavesdropped to other customers discussing their "pupils" I assumed they were music teachers. One was saying that he didn't consider his students musicians - until they had completed a 3 hour concert without making mistakes. I left quietly not wanting to disturb the immortals in their musing.
Leigh
Have to agree with all the responses to this.
I had lessons very early on in my guitar days, learning to read basic music, but what they were teaching me was just so uninspiring.
If you are making sounds that you want to make, you are a musician in my book ;)
Quote from: Gu Djin on December 07, 2010, 06:24:37 AMOddly, or maybe not, I've never considered myself a musician. I just like making happy noise.
Yep, that's me, fly by the seat of my pants everytime. It's one of the main reasons I love my recorder, I can please myself and not have to stay within the confines of a written script. Having said that, I wish I could read music but it wouldn't make me play any better and I wouldn't feel the music any better it's just a thirst for knowledge................Willie
Quote from: j.g. on December 06, 2010, 02:57:03 PMI had a bit of a heated discussion with someone recently,and my blood is still boiling from it.
They said if we can't read music, we aren't musicians - do you agree??
he was trying to to get your goad-he did it
reading notation is not a requirement to be able to express oneself through a musical instrument-it's a ridiculous argument imo
Quote from: Bluesberry on December 07, 2010, 04:46:27 AMQuote from: Tony W on December 06, 2010, 09:42:05 PMInstead, I'm the guy who followed a dangerous driver 3 miles to where he stopped. I gave him the option of a lecture or an ass-whooping.
And what was his choice Tony?
when he realized the levity of the situation, he locked himself in his car.
I agree - just make some music for pete sakes! Let the rest sort it out.
Like someone else said "Artists
create art, critics
destroy art."
QuoteIf you are making sounds that you want to make, you are a musician in my book
Great one Daveyboy!
I have a 6 year old that was plunking on the keyboard last night. I could tell she was really trying to play something she was hearing in her head. She's a musician in my book.
P.S. Does farting in the bathtub count? ;D ;D ;D ;D
(Tiny bubbles...)
Quote from: j.g. on December 06, 2010, 02:57:03 PM...They said if we can't read music, we aren't musicians - do you agree??
Wasn't it ever thus? :(
The way the person spoke indicates a certain goading going on, and of course there are millions of musicians who've never been able to read music, and probably millions of well-known songs written by people who haven't been able to read music. However, it has to be said that the ability to read (and properly write), music does open up a vast world that is otherwise hidden from those unable to read music. If people want to argue against that, fine. I can only read some basic piano music, but realise how much more (and what beauty there is), in written composition. Still, I believe that banging out my six guitar chords of course qualifies me (and everyone else, too), as a musician. :)
It's all been said already!!!
I really like listening to Rick Wakeman on Planet rock, but one thing he said REALLY pissed me off. It was "You can't call yourself a musician if you haven't got out there and gigged, starting at the flea pits and really worked" or something along those lines. One reply to that-----Bullshit!!!!! I hear more 'musicianship' on here, and other forums, than I'll ever hear on the radio or anywhere a lot of the time.
Slightly OT, but there you go.
One question TW---------What was the result ???? :D
Quote from: StevieM on December 07, 2010, 01:22:45 PMI really like listening to Rick Wakeman on Planet rock, but one thing he said REALLY pissed me off. It was "You can't call yourself a musician if you haven't got out there and gigged, starting at the flea pits and really worked"
LOL! I did that! I started in the flea pits, trouble was I never really got any further than that!
Cheers,
Nigel
I really don't have a problem with people who read music from a piece of paper, as long as they don't have a problem with me wiping my ass with paper I guess.
Quote from: Ferryman on December 07, 2010, 02:55:56 PMQuote from: StevieM on December 07, 2010, 01:22:45 PMI really like listening to Rick Wakeman on Planet rock, but one thing he said REALLY pissed me off. It was "You can't call yourself a musician if you haven't got out there and gigged, starting at the flea pits and really worked"
LOL! I did that! I started in the flea pits, trouble was I never really got any further than that!
Cheers,
Nigel
You and me both! :D (And several thousand others over the years, I imagine)
By this person's standard, I am not a musician. I can read music but the overwhelming majority of
music I've played over the years was done from listening because I could not find sheet music for it
and wasn't interested in wasting time/money looking for the sheets.
I've lost count of the bands I've done fill-in work with. Example: The guitarist for Band X needs
emergency surgery. I take his gigs for two weeks while he recovers.
All I ask for is a play list of the band's songs, the key they are in and any unusual pitch changes.
Fire those mothers up. I'm on it.
And, who in hell can accurately write a score featuring every single note played in a blistering one
minute solo? Good luck with that. Composers generally write AD LIB for the solo, in that case.
Just fill the time/measures.
Ludwig Von Beethoven started losing his hearing at the age of 26. He was nearly totally deaf when
he composed his best music. He used numbers (math) when creating his masterpieces.
Did that make him a musician or a mathematician? Or both?
My wife is a good sight reader. She plays piano and mandolin. She cannot improvise worth a handful
of warm spit, but anything on the sheet, including classical music, she can play immediately.
Alas, I cannot convince her to record with me. She is not comfortable trying to keep up with what I
do on the guitars.
After many years of observing groups, from duets to large orchestras, I can count on the fingers of
one hand the number of virtuoso instrumentalists that sight-read their solos. It didn't happen.
They either memorized, or improvised it.
Give it a test yourself. Try sight-reading, and playing sixteenth and thirty-second notes simultaneously.
I once had a young man attempt to convince me that guitarists like Clapton and Hendrix
picked every single note. He was so full of crap that it wasn't worth my time to dispute his claim.
When I play a rapid solo I am actually picking roughly one out of every two to three notes played.
The rest are hammered, using every finger at my disposal.
If you can't impress them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
I learned that from listening to politicians.
Play on, and do it your way. Whatever works for you. Ignore unadulterated ignorance.
Gene
Kenneth, I couldn't agree more.
Same goes for TV shows that may or may not be offensive to some people. That is what the channel selector is for. As well as the OFF switch.
Some people need to thicken their tinfoil hats. Some of those Cosmic Rays must be leaking through.
Geoff, if his/her world is so black and white, play a certain record to that person and ask him/her mention which of players are musicians and which are non-musicians. I think it would be easy to that intelligent person you discussed with ;) .
Kari
In my experience, those that can read music are brilliant interpreters. They can play anything you put in front of them, on their little silver music stands. Take away the notation, remove the dots...... and, well, they're basically fucked. Don't know what to do. Couldn't even play a scale. Can't make a sound. Stumped. HA HA.
henwrench
Quote from: henwrench on December 08, 2010, 09:48:31 AMIn my experience, those that can read music are brilliant interpreters. They can play anything you put in front of them, on their little silver music stands. Take away the notation, remove the dots...... and, well, they're basically fucked. Don't know what to do. Couldn't even play a scale. Can't make a sound. Stumped. HA HA.
henwrench
So by definition, those that can read music AKA "Real Musicians" in this case are basically puppets. One either needs to pull strings to get them to function, or stick an arm up their ass to manipulate the outcome?
Quote from: Tony W on December 08, 2010, 10:01:39 AMOne either needs to pull strings to get them to function, or stick an arm up their ass to manipulate the outcome?
Suberbly put. Yes. You got it.
henwrench
I think being able to read music would be helpful, but certainly not a prerequisite to being a good musician. I have to agree with the viewpoint that you could get too reliant on sheet music (or even tabs) and not be able to let go of those crutches. That would hamper creativity, which is what being a musician is all about.
Henwrench, I ran into exactly the situation you described. I was invited to join a newly forming band.
Three of the five members were graduates of various musical conservatories. Only me and the vocalist were non-graduates.
After two months of rehearsals the band wasn't ready to play out.
If even so much as one misplaced note or quaver appeared, they would stop the song and spend the next ten minutes arguing over that note. I don't think it ever occurred to any of them to either modify the "offending" note, or simply eliminate it and get on with the damn song.
I finally had enough of that, said my goodbyes and moved on. I wanted to play, not waste my time analyzing the music to death.
Quote from: Speed Demon on December 08, 2010, 10:06:59 AMI wanted to play, not waste my time analyzing the music to death.
Thats it right there Gene, hit the nail on the head.
Quote from: Bluesberry on December 08, 2010, 10:08:46 AMQuote from: Speed Demon on December 08, 2010, 10:06:59 AMI wanted to play, not waste my time analyzing the music to death.
Thats it right there Gene, hit the nail on the head.
I think it was Steve Martin who said 'Talking about music is like dancing around a picture.' Something like that anyway.
henwrench
Reading music has nothing to do with being a musician. Music notation is useful in writing down music for other musicians to play. Nothing more.
Not to change the subject, but this reminds me of a similar debate I had about whether people who use programs to make music, without ever actually using an instrument, are musicians.
Quote from: Saijinn Maas on December 08, 2010, 11:07:16 AMNot to change the subject, but this reminds me of a similar debate I had about whether people who use programs to make music, without ever actually using an instrument, are musicians.
Worms. Opened. Can. Uh-Oh..... :D :D :D
henwrench
Sai, now you've done it! You've released the Demon of Confusion upon an unsuspecting world.
Looks like I picked a lousy day to quit drinking antifreeze and snorting Draino.
Quote from: henwrench on December 08, 2010, 11:10:11 AMQuote from: Saijinn Maas on December 08, 2010, 11:07:16 AMNot to change the subject, but this reminds me of a similar debate I had about whether people who use programs to make music, without ever actually using an instrument, are musicians.
Worms. Opened. Can. Uh-Oh..... :D :D :D
henwrench
:D
I just had a thought - I wanna hear someone making music with a can of worms... I reckon we must have a few people creative enough or, er, crazy enough to give it a go...
But they'll have to write the parts out and post them with the track before we'll acknowledge them as true musicians, obviously...
Quote from: henwrench on December 08, 2010, 11:10:11 AMQuote from: Saijinn Maas on December 08, 2010, 11:07:16 AMNot to change the subject, but this reminds me of a similar debate I had about whether people who use programs to make music, without ever actually using an instrument, are musicians.
Worms. Opened. Can. Uh-Oh..... :D :D :D
henwrench
can of worms, exactly. This will be a lot less of a one sided debate.
I'm completely on the fence, because I'm a backer whore. I'd love to make the music that my soul is yearning for, but I'm not there yet. While I'm building my skill set, I feel marginally justified in taking advantage of a few applications which make life easier, but I have absolutely no intention of building a reliance on them.
When I am using a software application to make music, I feel like I'm using cheat codes on a video game.
Idk, I think it definitely takes some musical creativity to put together DJ mixes, even if they aren't the ones actually playing the music. I don't think just anyone could take a bunch of samples and make them into a flowing musical piece. Just like not anyone could pick up a guitar or sit at a piano and make music out of the notes they can play.
Quote from: little_chick on December 08, 2010, 11:42:59 AMIdk, I think it definitely takes some musical creativity to put together DJ mixes, even if they aren't the ones actually playing the music. I don't think just anyone could take a bunch of samples and make them into a flowing musical piece. Just like not anyone could pick up a guitar or sit at a piano and make music out of the notes they can play.
Would that put them more in the realm of "composer" rather than musician?
Some of these people are really good at what they do. Being able to put music together using samples and such. I don't have vested interest in this one or the other. I just thought it was a more interesting debate as the reading music one seems pretty one-sided.
i think that anything you can get a noise, sound or whatever is fair game, whether that be a musical instrument, a found object or software program, they all need a human interface. even putting samples together i would say falls into that category.
i saw quite an interesting program on bbc4 about krautrock. and they band faust where filmed "playing" a cement mixer.
now where can i get a can of worms, damn soil still frozen solid. when are we getting that global warming we where promised .
You only have to ask yourself, "Does the end justify the means?"
If your answer is yes, then use every musical idea/device/weapon at your disposal.
As far as I know there is no limit to the universe we live in, so why limit your creativity?
To me that's like buying a racehorse then training it to limp.
I like the term "creative artists and musicians". Doesn't really matter what you use as long as you make it into something new.
Now a can of worms are not really fair when fishing for trout I heard, it has to be attracted by something artificial, from fur feather and tinsel.
I was looking forward to slipping into the garden to pluck an orange in the same way we did in Cyprus...Ahh "Squid and Chips" and an ouzo ......
Ironic that worms has come to be the subject matter. Saturday my girlfriend found the bait cooler at the local gas station. She brought home a dozen worms to feed to her chickens.
She said "these worms are huge" when she opened the container in the house. Immediately my evil side kicked in, and I told her that she was going to choke the chickens if she tried to feed them full sized worms. I explained that she needed to cut them up into bite sized chunks.
I don't know why, but she believed me. She went through 4 kitchen knives trying to find the right one to chop up worms with. Unfortunately it was my turn to do the dishes.
/rant
Resume music....
huu huu huuuuu you said 'choke the chicken'. ha ha hhhaaahhhaaaa
henwrench
Quote from: 64Guitars on December 06, 2010, 03:15:19 PMMusic doesn't originate from a page. It originates from inside a person. The page is just a storage medium for sharing the music so that others can learn it. But it's by no means the only method of learning a piece of music. Many musicians do just fine learning music by listening to it and playing by ear. It's the end result that makes you a musician; not the method you use to learn a song.
64 G makes sense.
I'm currently having a go at using musical notation to learn a few christmas carols. Its easy stuff and I can use it to learn quickly BUT the only way I would know that what I am playing is "correct" is because I know what the music should sound like because I have heard it thousands of times. So, seeing the music on the page is not enough. You have to know what it "sounds" like to be "authentic".
like buying a racehorse then training it to limp.
nice one speed demon. think i may have to steel this.
all the best
terry
Terry, be careful repeating anything I say. One idiot on this planet is enough, if you listen to Mrs Demon
reminding me of how smart I am.
Gene
Talking of reading music and understanding what the song was about, reminds me of a song done by an excellent guitarist friend of mine, who was learning new techniques from the web and from midi files. He completed this really intricate song, not having heard the original. He played it extremely well from tab. It was only after listening to it several times did I twig that it was "Bright Eyes". His interpretation was so precise to the tab and midi file he was listening to - it disguised the original feel of the song and was almost a new creation.
Way too many people have problems understanding single syllable words, never mind reading music.
That's the only thing I can think of that might explain folks getting themselves killed running Stop signs.
One syllable must be confusing them, so don't expect miracles reading all those funny-looking squiggles and dots on sheet music.
If a musician falls in the forest is the noise he makes musical (if no one is there to hear it)?
Quote from: oldrottenhead on December 08, 2010, 12:49:14 PMi think that anything you can get a noise, sound or whatever is fair game,
they band faust where filmed "playing" a cement mixer.
There was a guy who put pickups on the beams underneath the Lion's Gate Bridge in Vancouver.
Cars passing overhead produced a steady rhythm, and the moving tension in cables produced an amazing plucking sound.
I wish I could find these recordings. Absolutely amazing stuff.