Not sure this is in the right section.
I've done some searching on here - I can't find any reference to any songcrafters doing this. Maybe I've not used the right keywords.
I'm talking about jamming, online in realtime - in a SATISFYING way (ie you can hear and watch each other, and just about play in time ;D)
I've been working with the other guitarist from the last band I was in (1999, last Century!!! Sheesh, we're getting old).
We started at his suggestion, I was a little wary at first... I find music a bit time-consuming and, well... It's actually been a laugh. But it's partly why I haven't posted anything here or on alonetone since whenever the last one was (March 2022).
The reason for asking this question on songcrafters now is we've just switched to FarPlay and... wow!
We'd been using JamKazam for ages, meeting once a week.
Fairly quickly we ended up working on old and new songs. Getting recordings ready. We've got 6 on the go at the moment in various states of "er... OK" and a load more in the planning stage (ie I haven't created the basic track yet!). Sooner or later they'll all end up on alonetone and then here when I've finished the multi-tracks and mixes.
Anyway we'd become increasingly frustrated with JamKazam. We did some searching and found FarPlay. It seemed to have a much thinner client, was cheaper, and, more importantly, seems to be more active in the development/support department. We ran some tests last week and decided to switch, cancelling JK subscriptions and taking out FarPlay subscriptions (looks like only one of us needed to do this).
FarPlay is more active - so much so that a new release dropped 20 mins before our first "real" session! I decided to take the release, and it worked perfectly (and made improvements we immediately took advantage of).
With JK, I used to have to get logged in and into a session about an hour before we wanted to start. And, even then, it was hit and miss on how stable it was going to be. With FarPlay, I just start it up and away we go. I can even record the sessions.
The sound is somewhat clearer, latency about the same (manageable). It means that finally we can actually jam, freeform, without a backing track or other kind of metronome.
With JK I had to get Drums/Bass/Whatever rough mixes together so we could play/sing over them. With FarPlay we do the same, but I can also feed EZDrummer (or Spotify, or anything) into the session. And we found we can play together now without any backing.
Anyone else doing something like this?
I am glad to hear you found something more useful... I do admit that I have missed some new song creations from you...
sounds interesting.
:)
The new recordings will end up on here, when they're finished ::)
The difference is that where I always used to work on one recording at a time, there are something like 12-14 "in flight" in various states of completion. They're all complete songs, just not complete recordings/renditions of them.
Here's an example. It's a song called More To Life. I wrote it a few months ago, and it was one of those "elbowed all the other songs out of the way" in the sessions.
It's one of the recordings in the "halfway there" stage of recording at the moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvfYtBVwyMAThis particular vid is just me, yesterday, recorded with the Windows camera app, taking video from my USB camera but audio from my PreSonus interface.
The backing track is guide drums, bass, and acoustic guitars recorded and mixed in Studio One in my usual way. Nothing set in stone yet.
The track is playing in Windows Media Player through a cheap USB stick audio driver, fed into my mixing desk.
My live guitar and vocals are also fed into the mixing desk.
Live mix is then fed to the PreSonus interface - simple as that.
Guitar is panned fully left because I was testing the mix/setup for the next session in FarPlay with Chris.
In the session, all I do is replace the Camera app with the FarPlay app logged into my personal rehearsal room. Chris joins too, and sends his mix (guitar panned right). The video works a bit like Teams or Zoom, but very little latency.
These sessions are just jams. When we feel ready (or have time!) we then exchange parts/stems for the completed recordings.
Some of the backing tracks are more fully formed, some less so.
It started out as stuff to jam to so he and I could play and sing. It's ended up being a full blown "thing".
What these jamming sessions have added, for both of us, is that indefinable thing that doing gigs added to a song. If you went into a studio and recorded a song, it would be loads more vibrant if you'd "bedded it in" in front of an audience first.
Super interesting. I've been a skeptic about whether this could ever work. I still think that latency can never be eliminated. Best case: Player A plays more or less alone, but Players B, and C play to the lag – they play along with Player A as the sound arrives, and it all gets synced and assembled after the fact.
But, damn, would I love to be proven wrong.
Quote from: Ted on March 28, 2024, 04:32:39 AMSuper interesting. I've been a skeptic about whether this could ever work. I still think that latency can never be eliminated. Best case: Player A plays more or less alone, but Players B, and C play to the lag – they play along with Player A as the sound arrives, and it all gets synced and assembled after the fact.
But, damn, would I love to be proven wrong.
I was a skeptic too... especially with my internet connection ;D
JamKazam was quite jolly, but we had some connectivity issues and it appears support/dev is dwindling after a good start.
Check out https://farplay.io/
We looked at it, downloaded the app, tested...
Then we paid for the subscription.
At my end, I get ~20ms latency round trip. You can play in time with that.
I was kind of amazed I can't see anyone talking about it here. I've assumed that various people, especially on collabs, must be doing this by now if an old luddite like me has found it ;D
Drop me a PM if you want to test it out.
I'm going offline for a bit, but I'll be back later.
Quote from: AndyR on March 28, 2024, 02:20:15 AM:)
The backing track is guide drums, bass, and acoustic guitars recorded and mixed in Studio One in my usual way. Nothing set in stone yet.
yMA[/youtube]
The track is playing in Windows Media Player through a cheap USB stick audio driver, fed into my mixing desk.
My live guitar and vocals are also fed into the mixing desk.
Live mix is then fed to the PreSonus interface - simple as that.
Guitar is panned fully left because I was testing the mix/setup for the next session in FarPlay with Chris.
In the session, all I do is replace the Camera app with the FarPlay app logged into my personal rehearsal room. Chris joins too, and sends his mix (guitar panned right). The video works a bit like Teams or Zoom, but very little latency.
These sessions are just jams. When we feel ready (or have time!) we then exchange parts/stems for the completed recordings.
Some of the backing tracks are more fully formed, some less so.
It started out as stuff to jam to so he and I could play and sing. It's ended up being a full blown "thing".
I enjoyed the video Andy some real swell playing and singing with complete belief.. that is how you do it.
That Gibson is lovely and it sounds great.
Hey this is mighty interesting!
"Gibson ES335, through a UAFX Woodrow & OX Stomp" That's some cool gear!
You're using OX Stomp with Woodrow. For variety, or did you feel Ox Stomp offered something better than what was already in Woodrow?
I've been thinking of Ruby, but turns out i can push Dream 65 even further so for now i'm good *knocks on wood*
Quote from: AndyR on March 28, 2024, 05:17:14 AMDrop me a PM if you want to test it out.
I may do that! I appreciate the offer. It won't be right away though. Maybe in a few weeks.
EDIT: This comment is all about amp pedals and wotnot... ALL was driven by getting realistic vibes in the online jam sessions.
Ruby is the one I want now! ;D (hopefully not, but you never know)
Here's how it went over the last few months:
I was using a Laney Lionheart L5 Studio but didn't like the speaker sim.
I heard about the Joyo pedals on here - super cool and much more cost-effective... but still a little "not quite" I've got the American and the British (I'm a Marshall guy at heart)
UA brought the OX Stomp out... oh wow.
Managed to justify it to myself (it'll do cabs for the Lionheart, and my Yamaha THR100HD, and the Line6 and Vox Tonelab stuff) - tried it with all of them and yes, cool, ended using the Lionheart and OX for a week or so...
(Btw I am still considering opening the Joyo pedals up again and snipping off the component that does the "amp sim" filtering - Joyo into OX would be awesome. And, actually, since I first checked, I've got the soldering kit that would do circuit board stuff)
I was still trying to figure out the best way to work it.
And then UA brought out the Lion....
WHAT THE ACTUAL F??!?!
Watch those UA vidsss... watch the review vids... holy smoke!!
The bar-stewards ;D ;D ;D ;D
Couldn't you have launched that a few weeks earlier guys?
It was a no-brainer, got the Lion, and, well... do I use the cabs in the Lion or the OX?
Well the OX has groovy Delay and Reverb and a load more settings the amp boxes don't... so, use them both 8)
I was using that for a few months. It was SO good that Chris (other guitarist) wanted a UA amp pedal too (he was using his son's 50W Marshall Origin).
After few weeks, I showed up to a session and he's playing a Dream 65 ;D
WOW! What tones!!!
While I was checking further, I discovered what the Woodrow could do ::)
Didn't take too long and I had one of those too.
At first I didn't actually like the Woodrow. But I watched a vid of this old guy teaching us how to use a real Tweed Deluxe... and that really opened up the pedal for me. So now... oh yeah.
The only thing I don't like on the Woodrow is that the app hasn't got a setting to configure the Instrument/Mic channels as "jumpered" or not like the Lion has.
I've tried the jumpered setting on the Lion, and I don't really want a Marshall Plexi jumpered like that - a cool sound but kind of a bridge too far for me.
I thought it might be the same effect on a Tweed, so I wasn't too concerned the Woodrow couldn't do it.
Sadly, the option I liked most from the old guy's vid was "jumper the inputs like this with a cable, turn all three knobs up full and back off a smidge... now use the volume and tones on your geetar" - that sounds fabulous on the video... warm cleans through to biting RAWK overdrive with just the guitar and your pick attack... but the Woodrow can't quite do that (yet?).
I've found you can get close with the boost circuit, though.
I think that's what I'm doing on that vid with the 335.
The 335... oh crumbs.
Had it since Monday.
Traded in a Standard 50s Les Paul (plus plenty)
I've wanted a Red 335 since before I knew what electric guitars did. Roy Orbison, The Bee Gees, then later Alvin Lee, etc.
I've had the black one behind me for years (there's a NGD post on here somewhere). That one was a satin finish and I polished it up. It's gorgeous and does many cute things.
But I'm in my 60s now and it's like "but you always wanted a red one..."
I decided to get rid of the best Les Paul because it's not my favourite and is less bashed up for trade/resale purposes. The shop had a Satin and this full fat one (also had various Custom shop options at several £££ more, didn't even look at those). I wanted to like the Satin, it was nearer to the brighter cherry I was expecting, rather than this darker cherry... But this one tone and feel was miles ahead for me.
On the way home with the 335 I was terrified I'd got it wrong. But the rest of Monday I found out how much I'd wanted this thing for something like 50 years, I was in tears at one point for the 10/11 year old me and what he'd wanted.
We've even had a joke here for a few nights. At bedtime Mrs R finds the 335 tucked up on her side of the bed ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Ted on March 28, 2024, 09:37:45 AMQuote from: AndyR on March 28, 2024, 05:17:14 AMDrop me a PM if you want to test it out.
I may do that! I appreciate the offer. It won't be right away though. Maybe in a few weeks.
Yep, no worries. Meanwhile, I'll post any news, good or bad, of our experiences in here.
Next session is Monday. I suspect he might have figured out new camera angles - all I usually see is his nodding head! If that's the case, and we get a good take, I might post a vid with both of us - the video quality isn't so good as this, though (it uses every bit of juice it can for latency v sound quality).
Quote from: AndyR on March 28, 2024, 10:18:49 AMBut I watched a vid of this old guy teaching us how to use a real Tweed Deluxe... and that really opened up the pedal for me.
Same thing happened to me with Dream 65 :) I liked it a lot, but felt that there were some limitations. Turns out there weren't. I just didn't know enough on how the real amp behaves...
Yeah, that Lion. I will probably get that eventually... Incase you're into plugins. The Neural Amp Modeler sounds absolutely great. It's at least as good as these pedals. Which is crazy. And it's free.
@Ted
Here you go.
This was recorded via FarPlay during the session an hour or so ago.
Then I used Studio One to process and master the stereo audio in the mp4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbGBUa_FXacThis is published as an unlisted video on youtube.
I'll probably take it down at some point.
Rehearsal on FarPlay Sunday 14th April 2024
Andrew Russe
- Live Electric Guitar & Lead Vocal
- Recorded Acoustic Guitar & Bass
Chris Nicholson
- Live Electric Guitar
I was experiencing approx 17ms Latency during today's session.
Chris experienced between 20-30ms.
You can easily perform in time at up to 30ms.
During the 2-3 hour session we experienced one glitch when latency jumped to 50-70ms and Chris's end momentarily froze completely. Otherwise, no issues, thoroughly enjoyable/constructive session all round.
Neither of us are on full fibre.
Quote from: AndyR on April 14, 2024, 08:16:01 AMI was experiencing approx 17ms Latency during today's session.
Chris experienced between 20-30ms.
You can easily perform in time at up to 30ms.
Definitely seems worth a try. Will the system tell you when latency is a problem, or do you have to notice it?
Quote from: AndyR on April 14, 2024, 08:16:01 AM@Ted
Here you go.
This was recorded via FarPlay during the session an hour or so ago.
Then I used Studio One to process and master the stereo audio in the mp4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbGBUa_FXac
This is published as an unlisted video on youtube.
I'll probably take it down at some point.
Rehearsal on FarPlay Sunday 14th April 2024
Andrew Russe
- Live Electric Guitar & Lead Vocal
- Recorded Acoustic Guitar & Bass
Chris Nicholson
- Live Electric Guitar
I was experiencing approx 17ms Latency during today's session.
Chris experienced between 20-30ms.
You can easily perform in time at up to 30ms.
During the 2-3 hour session we experienced one glitch when latency jumped to 50-70ms and Chris's end momentarily froze completely. Otherwise, no issues, thoroughly enjoyable/constructive session all round.
Neither of us are on full fibre.
Bloody marvellous!
Quote from: AndyR on March 28, 2024, 10:18:49 AMOn the way home with the 335 I was terrified I'd got it wrong. But the rest of Monday I found out how much I'd wanted this thing for something like 50 years, I was in tears at one point for the 10/11 year old me and what he'd wanted.
this alone made reading all these comments worth the time. I loved reading this Andy. That is so awesome to feel like a kid again! To be able to touch that!
I enjoyed watching and hearing what you did there with the other gentleman, Andy!
Really sounds good. Nice leads too.
You are making a convincing case. I don't really do any video stuff. That would a worthwhile upgrade to my studio. A few cameras and then learn to use them.
Quote from: StephenM on April 15, 2024, 06:41:27 AMThat would a worthwhile upgrade to my studio. A few cameras and then learn to use them.
I'm sure i'll eventually get into this whole online jamming thing, but without cameras.
The excuse of blaming latency for bad playing is too good to pass. I can imagine hitting the wrong chord and going "hey... the latency... it's killing me" :D