Songcrafters.org

At long last... finished... phew... :P

I posted an early work in progress of this song a while back (over a month ago!).

It's not really evolved much as a song since then, but the arrangement went absolutely bonkers!

I think it's the most complex thing I've attempted on the MBR, I very nearly took the tracks off to my DAW for mixing and processing, but in the end I've done the whole lot on the MBR again - it never ceases to amaze me what you can do with this thing. It was a lot of work, and it's stopped me doing anything else in my life for the last few weeks. Luckily, I'm quite pleased with the outcome :D

Hope you like it :)

Really frigging WOW.  I love everything about this.  It sounds really good, well done with the mixing and mastering.  You could go on one of those gear/techie recording sites, where all the dudes have $10, 000 worth of equiptmemt for their home recording studios, and they would not be able to do any better than this.  This is perfect sounding really.  All microBR, very inspiring.  You are one hell of a songwriter thats for sure.

Wow that was really cool!!  Excellent job of using the br tools.

Great song writing, singing, playing, chord scheme, production. A target for us all. Good stuff Andy.

WOW Andy, I just can't describe how good this is! First of all your playing and production is so perfect, and I LOVE your voice. And on top of that you make such a wonderful, complex yet lovely song. I am in awe.

Thank you for sharing your wonderful music!!

I have to say i agree with Bluesberry's comment's 100% , you are very talented at songwriting , i caught up with some of your other stuff on soundclick and loved it , production on this song it just excellent ,tried to figure out who you sounded like vocally ,  but came to the conclusion you are quite unique , well done andy



Facemask93

What can I say Andy? A fantastic number, premium production and love thos vox!!

I would also like to thank you for the technical info that you have posted earlier, and that it has helped my sound get much better(It would help if I could play, though!!) - you are the man when it comes to recording, no doubt and know what you are talking about!! A great asset to this forum.

Thanks,

Mark

i wish i could hear this.


Laptop is dead!

Your stuff is always great!

Will find a way to listen!

Thanks folks - much appreciated :)

I've been fighting with this one for weeks, I've been dying to finish it so I could post it and find out if I was barking up the right tree or not... (I was almost sure I was, but you never know do you?)

Launched, I've got three more tips I've learnt this time (actually I learnt far more than that, but these ones stick out):

1. Bottom end
I had a lot of trouble making the track flow, and I solved it just before I did the vocals.
I was quite pleased with the bass part, it's on the kick drums where it needs to be, it's thumping and melodic, etc, etc - but it's quite sparse and leaves a lot of spaces.
Early bounce/mixes (with the majority of guitars) just weren't doing it - everything was "spikey" and thin sounding.
I discovered two tricks (and I'm now sure these must be standard practice on professional recordings, they worked so well):
1) This was an accident and counter-intuitive - take a LOAD more bottom end off the guitar submix... this made everything warmer, fitted better with the bass, and sounded as if everyone was playing the same song.
2) We still had gaps in the bottom end that I didn't want to "lose" but I didn't want them so obvious. So I recorded a single note low organ part, just following the root notes. No rhythm to it (except under the "sooner or later" chords). It meant that I could let that part handle the "bass" and then the bass guitar could be treated so it was loud enough to hear the performance without making everything too jumpy. It's possible that most people, including me, wouldn't even realise that organ is there now.
I wouldn't use this trick everytime - only if the bass part needs help. If it's not jumpy, or if the track wants jumpy... then it doesn't need smoothing out!

2. Lead Vocal
I learnt this trick last time, but it really came into it's own on this track because of the mix the vocals have to cut through. It's an old motown trick apparently, and has been used in pop/rock ever since. You do it to the lead vocal.
i) Get a decent finished lead on a single track (edited, bounced from parts, wotever)
ii) Copy the track
iii) Track 1 - NO eq or compression at all. Put the reverb on this vocal. Dial this one into the mix at the volume the vocal needs to be.
iv) Track 2 - compress it to death (INF on all bands in the 3 band compressor), take the bottom/mid right out and boost the top end. No reverb on this one. Turn it up in the mix "to taste" - until the vocal jumps out but it doesn't start to sound weird...
v) Balance the two until you're happy (I think it was about 90:45 on levels track one to track two), and then bounce with the band...
This gives you a nice warm, natural vocal, that sounds uncompressed, but cuts through the mix without having to drown the band. It really works!!

3. "rhythm"
When it came to final overdub time (the high guitar in the 3rd verse), I was still having trouble with the track "flowing" and sounding homogenous all the way through. Part of this was down to the drum patterns I was having to use - verse two has a faster hi-hat pattern. The other problem is the rhythmic change between verses and choruses.

After a lot of head-scratching, I realised that this is were "percussion" gets used on recordings. Tambourine, shaker, cowbell, claps, whatever it takes, playing a recognisable pattern through all the changes...

I haven't got any such instruments at the moment (expect trip to the shops soon!), and my experience of trying to use them in studios in the past is not good! I considered slapping coins in pockets, experimenting with household objects, but my rhythm when hitting things is not too good - I need to practice this a lot before I use it in anger...

So I decided to use another guitar. You can hardly hear it. In fact, I'm not sure you can really spot it at all, but it makes a hell of difference if it's not there. It plays all the way from the start of verse one to the end of chorus two where the mood changes. Then it's silent until the final choruses and out.

All it is is a fairly clean telecaster (middle position, bridge was too bright) playing what I call a "Ritchie Blackmore" rhythm part - "dung-dukka-dung-dukka-dung" kind of thing. And it's got a carefully timed stereo echo on it as well so that you've got all these cross-rhythms going on.

It's low enough in the mix so that it doesn't "feature" (get in the way of the jangly tremolo'd guitars that have the same delay on them) or remove too much of the contrast between verses and choruses. But it's loud enough to tie it all together. And boy did it make a difference. AB'ing between the two versions, the missus picked the one with "dung-dukka" but didn't know why... "it's just better..." :)

NEway, better get on with some work now!!

Hope you get some relief for your broken laptop situation osckilo! (I thought the screen on mine had died last week, but giving it a slap seemed to fix it! :D)

Wow!! Your vocals are like from a ledgendary metal singer with a pop/rock band, and it works very nicely together.
 My only negative is.. I can't friggin download it.. Sob...Sob...

Oh thanks for your production details and tips. Bit advanced for me at the moment, but worth hanging on to.

Andy, this is just fantastic on so many levels. It's a very strong song and hugely commercial, with some clever key changes and drum programming (Ted has competition!). The vocal performance is excellent and all the instruments are so well played (altho I would have loved a screaming guitar solo at some point  ;)). And the bass part is indeed excellent. But it's the production that takes it to a higher level for me, I can understand why it takes you a long time to produce a song like this. So many subtle touches that make this as polished as anything you will hear anywhere. I knew the MBR was capable of something like this, and you have proved it.

Thanks you so much for all your recording tips, they are SO helpful. I will be trying that vocal trick on my next effort. And will be striving for that bar you just raised!!

Oh and it was me that asked for the lyrics - the "underwear" lyric piqued my interest  :D Thanks for sharing, they're great lyrics.

Cheers,

Nigel

All the slick, masterful production would count for nothing unless there was a top quality bit of songwriting and musical ability sitting underneath the sheen. And man, this is really is a great song and performance. We can learn so much from you production-wise, but we can also just listen and enjoy songs like this. Your vocals alone are outstanding. It's wonderful.

Thanks Andy for sharing many of your technical details with us - Excellent!! So many things I want to try now...

Thanks,

Mark

Thanks again folks - just listened to it again myself, I'm satisfied now, I've even started to forget the "issues" I know are there but probably no-one else can hear...

Ferryman - guitar solo, hmmm... just done the durty blooz thing... I'm not sure my playing is up to "screaming guitar solos" anymore (if it ever was!), I specialise more in tasteful little guitar bits that adorn mixes now! :D

I'll bear it in mind though!

Quote from: AverGo on June 29, 2009, 02:56:01 AMMy only negative is.. I can't friggin download it.. Sob...Sob...

Ah! I didn't think of that... I don't really want to make the stuff on soundclick downloadable - and I thought I was saving space here on the MBR server!! I can't attach it to this thread now it's started, can I? Or can I??...

EDIT: Nope can't see how to do it...

Quote from: AndyR on June 29, 2009, 03:01:05 PM

Quote from: AverGo on June 29, 2009, 02:56:01 AMMy only negative is.. I can't friggin download it.. Sob...Sob...

Ah! I didn't think of that... I don't really want to make the stuff on soundclick downloadable - and I thought I was saving space here on the MBR server!!

Damn. My regular geek trick doesn't work either.  SoundClick and MySpace are onto me.

Andy: Great song and great production.  How's that therapy coming?  Remember? We were going to try to capture our ideas, and try not turn everything into a massive production.  This song sounds like a relapse for you.   ;)

Question:  I've got tweakophobia.  Do you suppose I'd get the same "compress it to death" effect by just using HardComp, untweaked?

:D Therapy's going great, Ted! I tend to do to a song what it needs - and this one needed, er, polishing in all departments... my thinking when I made that (possibly foolish) statement about capturing ideas was along the lines of "let's try songs that don't need the full works..."

Greeny's latest one has got me thinking though. I do have a whole bunch of old songs that have never been arranged much further than me and an accoustic... I have synths with strings on...  2 plus 2, equals, er... :D

On the compress it to death question - I'm not near my MBR at the moment, so I'm not sure about HardComp. I strongly suspect that the answer is "no" though - I've heard HardComp on a mix, and the job it does is not what you're after.

This is what I did: I took something like MixDown or PreMaster, and saved it over User and Song presets, naming them as appropriate: AngGCmp, AngVox, AngBVox, AngBass, etc... (my nickname is Angus).

Give it a go, take one of those presets, go into LOC and stick it on the vocal track to be hammered. Go into CMP, and set the Lo, Mid, and Hi ratio all to INF (don't mess with anything else in here yet). Go into EQ and take loads of Lo and Mid off, and boost Hi. That's how I did it. Next time, I'll lower the Lo, Mid, Hi thresholds in CMP to about -20 to -30 each and see what that does...(!)

good song-good arrangement-nice production
nice vox too Andy

Congratulations on a fine production. I like the detail in the (almost orchesteral) arrangement and the well-engineered mix. This song has all the stuff!

Also- As you may be aware, Bob Dennis who was the mastering engineer at Motown back in the day describes the compression tecnique you mention as the 'Exciting Compressor'.  It appears (and sounds) to me that the [ENH].... the Enhancer effect of the Micro-BR does a similar job.  Ie: It boosts a selected frequency, say 5K, and I think adds compression.

Very polished song,great vocals,BRAVO :)

Quote from: hooper on June 30, 2009, 07:10:46 AMAlso- As you may be aware, Bob Dennis who was the mastering engineer at Motown back in the day describes the compression tecnique you mention as the 'Exciting Compressor'.  It appears (and sounds) to me that the [ENH].... the Enhancer effect of the Micro-BR does a similar job.  Ie: It boosts a selected frequency, say 5K, and I think adds compression.

Yep that's the stuff - "Exciting Compressor". I found the articles via a thread on here (I've got links on my explorer at home, I'll dig them out and post them). Interesting what you say about the Enhancer on the MBR - I wrote it off because the articles I read said how the "Exciting Compressor" method, for the author, beat the Aural Exciter and various 70s-80s inventions that claimed to do the same thing, because it sounds more natural. I did actually find it gave me a more controllable/understandable effect than the Enhancer when I tried it a while back.

But maybe give the MBR enhancer effect a go, Ted?

There's another trick I use but it won't work on the MBR because you need to be able to access the reverb only, not the original signal. If I ever have a problem on a vocals I'll transfer to my DAW and do the following:

Copy lead vocal track
Slide it slightly later by a miniscule amount
Stick your reverb (set up for wet only) on an auxiliary bus
On the delayed version only, set the aux send to pre-fader
Turn the track's fader down so no dry signal gets to the mix
Use the original vocal in the mix
Use the delayed track's aux send as a "reverb volume" control

This has the effect of separating the vocal slightly from it's reverb - you can put LOADS of reverb on with out muddying the vocal :) An engineer taught me this and said it's an old rock and roll trick that John Lennon used a lot on his solo stuff - basically you're sticking the reverb on a single tight delay. But for it to not sound too "John Lennon in the bathroom" you've got to be able to lose the delay itself and only get the reverb from it.

Anyway, I'm begining to understand that the main thing is "less is more" I think :D
My early efforts were "wot's an enhancer? (for example) Dunno, certainly could do with some enhancing, bang a bit on then... can't hear it, bang a bit more on... oh yeah, that's doing something, that'll do..."

Now, I'm getting to the stage of "Why isn't this basic part working? Is it this actual track's fault, or is it another track causing it? OK, now I've identified the culprit, how do I fix it by taking something away rather than adding something..."

If only I could apply that thinking to the number of over-dubs!! I'm begining to think that the famous Brian May harmony guitars sound might have a little of this behind it in it's genesis... the first two albums are a little bit "ho-hum" on the guitars - nice stuff, but possibly they were subject to "there's something missing, let's put another guitar part on it..."

Then suddenly on Sheer Heart Attack that signature harmony sound jumps out at you. I can imagine Brian May thinking "I'm sure I need layers of guitars, I can't stop doing them anyway... so how do I get this stuff right, under my control, with the minimum of fuss..." and then coming up with a very disciplined method of selecting, arranging, and carefully recording only the parts that do the job.

So ... my first encounter with an AndyR song.  I have heard many people talk about the genius of AndyR's songwriting and production.  I thought the tales were all just mythical ... much like sasquatch.  Kidding, of course.

Not to my surprise at all, you have impressed me quite a bit.  I am nearly speechless here, and that is pretty damned odd for me.  I have been known to babble for days about everything and nothing.  The production is superb, the song professionally written, vocals and musicianship incredible.  At this point, as much as I have heard about you, this was to be expected.

What I can't wrap my head around is how you manage to take a light and airy pop tune and merge it effortlessly with a Ronnie James Dio-esque late 70s/early 80s melodic metal song!  WTF?!?!  And I mean that in the most revered way possible.  That is a combination I have never, ever heard.  I am officially blown away.

You, sir, are a phenomenal musician and songwriter.

I thought you did a great job on the production and playing, very nice. you use the BR very well.

Thanks guys..

But, Wooo! many thanks Bosko - that's made my day bigtime :)

Someone else has said about the rock/metal thing - that's quite interesting. My early "rock" influences were Queen, and more Queen, and more... etc, and Judas Priest.

My main early musical influences were 60s and early 70s Bee Gees, Johnny Cash, also Frank, Doris & Judy. Then it was ELO and all that was in the UK charts around 1978-1980. Slade and, when I discovered him later, Marc Bolan were very influential for me as well. Also I found and really got into Jethro Tull and The Who, and The Beatles, 10-20 years after each's peak. I've done a lot of taking their stuff apart to varying degrees to see how it worked...

Now, in the late 70s, Queen themselves were an amalgamation of rock and music hall - and they kinda showed me that "all bets were off", you can do/play what you want...

I think that's roughly all the influences for this one. Except Tom Petty! nearly forgot that - I was pretending to be Tom Petty when I was writing the verses. In fact, I had problems over deciding what accent to sing with - the verses were written with a Tom Petty drawl, I tried to eradicate it but some of the words need a bit of it ("But I like her - what can ya do?")

I spose it's all kinda rubbed off and, on this one, luckily, the melting pot thing worked!

OK - sounds like I need to dust off all the songs my last band didn't want to do ten years ago!! :D

Yes, this is the only song I've heard from you so far, but that was what I got from it.  A perfect merger between pop and very early metal -- especially when you hit those high notes!  It's totally Dio!  You didn't mention him as an influence, but Judas Priest is definitely a similar vein.  I didn't honestly hear Queen in there, but I will take another listen, as it's pretty clear from what you said that they are/were your favourite band!  I do hear the Petty-ish verses!

Very cool and not what I was expecting, which made it even cooler. :)

I quite like the early Rainbow albums, but not the Dio fronted Sabbath - first album was good, but Dio's delivery didn't really grab me.

Yep, Queen big time... but even bigger for me was Rory Gallagher - that doesn't show up so much in my songwriting nowadays though.

Quote from: AndyR on July 02, 2009, 11:03:37 AMI quite like the early Rainbow albums, but not the Dio fronted Sabbath - first album was good, but Dio's delivery didn't really grab me.

Agreed ... Rainbow was awesome, and the only true Sabbath is with Ozzy.

Finally got a chance to listen to this.

A superb tune!

It has that happy 80's vibe that I remember from my childhood!

I forgot how that felt in a tune till I listened to this, fresh take on the genre!

Bravo sir!

Peace

T(Osckilo)

Hey Boscko, If you liked this one, make sure to check out If-we-should-sing-together (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br-b65/if-we-should-sing-together/msg25460/#msg25460).  Really great song by Andy.

What can I say it,s all been said before  but just had to give you a big well done and what a great tune.

Thanks guys - much needed support at a difficult time (musically)...

- Sore throat (not too much bother, not ready to do a vocal at the moment anyway)
- Can't figure out how to approach chosen songs for woodstock fest, begining to wish I'd kept quiet about joining in :D
- A new song is potentially "amazing" but I can't figure out how to approach it, it's in danger of sounding "flat" and "lack-lustre" (I've got some ideas, but I think it involves hitting household objects to generate a rhythm part, and I'm not sure my sense of rhythm is up to it!)

It's one of those dark periods when you know what you want to do, but can't see how to do it, nor get the energy up to find out how to do it...

So, coming on here and finding continuing appreciation of past work is a real boost - many, many thanks :)

This one needs a

Great BUMP Geir, we all need a little AndyR from time to time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A Great song! Great vocals. So catchy and such interesting parts! You nailed this one - excellent work!

well bumped geir i missed this first time round

Thanks Geir :)

I've been a bit distracted lately - I've abandonned three or four projects over the last few months... but I am finally working on some new stuff, trying very hard to keep the production down  :D

I'm quite sure that, what you have abandonned I would have posted after a few hours ;)  Would love to hear a "rough" AndyR production. ... oh well maybe not ... better to think you use gazillion of hours on everything you post, so that I can dream that when I get plenty of time, I too can get that good productions ;D

Time to bump this bad boy.  This thread needs to be heard, seen and read every once in a while.  Great music, great recording tips...its all here.

Man you really have some range on your voice. You nail everything just right. I can't say enough about your singing. Super smooth drive up to the highs and and you don't lose any power or volume. More cool stuff. I love it!

For some reason my PC won't play anything on Soundclick (even my own) so I can't listen to this.

Can anybody tell this poor old man what to do?

Paul

Quote from: chapperz66 on March 02, 2010, 01:42:46 PMFor some reason my PC won't play anything on Soundclick (even my own) so I can't listen to this.

Can anybody tell this poor old man what to do?

Paul

Don't worry, sorted it.  I have to join the adulation and glad this got "bumped."  Awesome stuff.  Really.

Paul

I agree with Greeny. Slick production and good mixing doesn't mean a thing if it don't have a good song to start with. Excellent.

Agree with all the above and more. well done and a big thumbs up . take care Neil

Folks! Many thanks... and special thanx to Mr BumpBerry  ;D

Still in lurk mode at the moment - doodling loads but not recording.

However, I am looking at 2 weeks off around Easter (that the missus can't take), so I have high hopes  :)

I'll have to have a listen to this myself when I get home - I can't really remember what it sounds like...  ::)

BUMP

What a wonderful 60s Motown feel! GREAT, no, wait ... INCREDIBLE vocals!

Regards,
  Steffen

:)

Right, I'm gonna see if I can get the mp3 attached to the original post in this thread - I've just figured out why it doesn't appear in my "Play all my songs" link ::)

(I have to admit, I originally plonked in a link to soundclick in an attempt to get it bumped up the charts there :D).

Let's see what happens!

EDIT: It worked! But only after 64G had helped me - many thanks for that, I'll know next time (eg if I want to remix a song after posting).

OK, the folks that wanted to download it can now! (I never allow downloading on Soundclick)

Very clean production, must have missed the earlier version.  I reckon this would be complicated on any recording platform.  Good one.

Can't add any more to what as been said, apart from the fact that I feel guilty as hell for not commenting on it previously.

Unbelievable quality of songwriting, performance and production, you certainly pushed the BR to its limits here!

Quote from: AndyR on October 24, 2010, 10:24:12 AMOK, the folks that wanted to download it can now! (I never allow downloading on Soundclick)

I do download them from there anyway. ;)

Regards,
  Steffen

OK folks, ignore the waffle about Soundclick etc above.

The player in the OP is now playing from alonetone. You can download from that. Or you can play or download from my alonetone pages by using the links in my sig.