Songcrafters.org

To all of those who write, I was just curious what your writing process...not so much the subject contents of the lyric but the mechanics. How do you know where you want what?

Do you use a format? Trial and error.

Would like to hear everyone's input on this! :)

Also RIP Farrah Fawcett....she passed away this AM and I can't tell you What that post some 30 years ago meant to me!  :o

Yeah Hi , I love this question , and interested what people will say.
But i defo use a forumla - but I start with guitar and get a riff going
and make it as simple as possable.
like    intro/verse/ch/verse/ch/br/2ch/end     =        A/B/A/B/C/BB

if the verses are 16 bars and the chorus is 8 bars
this gives you a song at 120bpm of about 2min 40sec
the perfect song lenght.
But differant chords patterns may lead you to varing this format.
Tell me if iam wrong.

There's no single format for me. Generally though, I start with a lyrical theme / idea - normally something as simple as a song title. This kind of tells me where the music should be going (e.g. angry, romantic, rocked-up, miserable etc etc). From there, I'll play guitar and look for a riff or hook that I can develop into a verse or chorus or bridge (my songs always have at least three distinct parts). I'm always looking for a 'big' chorus - if I find that, the rest falls into place fairly easily. I also play around with a capo as another way of coming up with a different feel / flavour. At this point, I'll be humming the vocal melody, but I often find that words start appearing along the way. I've learned to write them down, along with the chords before I forget them! Then, I'll write all the words and 'live' with the song a bit - i.e. play it through on an acoustic over a number of days if I can. This allows me to smooth out anything that's not right, and get a good feel for the whole thing before I record. When it comes to recording, I'll already know what I'm after in terms of feel, speed and guitar tone. I'll have worked it all out in my head on the train / bus etc. I pretty much stick to a 3:00 minute to a 3:30 minute song length if I can.

Now, with Jemima's Kite, I do something very different. All my guitar parts are riff-driven and I don't have to think about lyrics or vocals, so I'm literally just playing guitar and looking for new sounds / chord progressions / riffs etc.

Songwriting isn't an exact science though - you never know what is / isn't going to work until you do it. And sometimes you just stumble upon something magical. That last part is what we all strive for!!!!

I have been listening to quite a few tunes on this site and I am quite impressed with the songwriting abilities of some of the contributers here.
Many of the songs on this site are 10X better than the stuff on the radio these days.

I have been writing songs for a long time, but have only had the time and opportunity to record a few.

I am really glad 64 guitars introduced me to this site (through his BR Forum) because I don't really know any other song writers that have reached a level of the magnitude shown on this board. There is some really good stuff here and I think we can all benefit from the advice of each other!

When I share my songs with other people, the first thing they usually ask is "How did you come up with that?".
A lot of times I can't answer that question because songs just pop into my head and I try to write them down or record them as fast as possible before I lose the idea. I see it more as "receiving" a song rather than "writing" a song.
I'm sure many of us can relate and that is probably the reason why so many people own the smaller BR recorders.

Another thing that people often ask is "Do you write the music or the lyrics first?". My answer to this is "Usually both at the same time" because it normally starts with a riff or chord that I immediately attach a word or phrase to. It's almost like I can't break the two apart because there is such a strong bond between the two that it just "feels" right.

I like to record my rhytmm guitar to the Boss rhythm patch 314 and sing at the same time. I then go back and start adding layers (programming the drums is the worse part) until I the song fits the vision in my head. I don't normally go back and add to a song after I have mastered it once. I'm kind of lazy that way  ;).

- Vann

hI tHANKS Vann for the insight very well put -- i agree thats what iam looking for
is advise , and helpful critasisem ( sorry cant spell 2 well )
from people who know what there doing ( thats you lot !)
Look farward to other posts. That why ive posted SOMETIMES on the
br 600 page coz i would like help advise on where i should take the song.
Oh and thanks Greeny for your post
.

ASSASSIN

First thing is I write VERY slowly and it's a painful process. If it's a song, rather than an instrumental, there are two ways that I do this.

Way 1 - start with something on the guitar. So the music comes first, I get a basic structure and feel together and then build the lyrics to fit the music. On this song:

https://songcrafters.org/community/post-your-work/is-paris-burning/0/ (https://songcrafters.org/forum/post-your-work/is-paris-burning/0/)

I started with the guitar riff in the verse and built a basic song structure on the guitar. I then saw a newspaper clipping about an ageing movie actress who had tried to commit suicide and for some reason that sparked the image of a guy who had once been her lover sitting in a cafe seeing this article and reminiscing about their relationship and what had happened. Cafes = Paris in my mind and I thought of the movie title "Is Paris Burning?" as a good title for the song, and it all kind of fell together. BTW, the movie has nothing to do with actresses or love stories, it's a war movie!

Way 2 - start with the song concept and get lyrical ideas first, then build the music to fit the lyrical idea. That's what I did with this one:

https://songcrafters.org/community/post-your-work/cassilda's-song-a-bit-scary/0/ (https://songcrafters.org/forum/post-your-work/cassilda's-song-a-bit-scary/0/)

which you can see is going to be part of a concept album based on a gothic horror novel. I am working on the second track and for this one I wrote the lyrics (which took four weeks!) before I started work on the music.

I tend to get a lot of inspiration from books, films, news and studying history. I don't write much about my own experiences, I find that very hard. Greeny is a master of this, and he is very, very good at it.

Like Vann if I use the BR for drums I record most of the music over a drum pattern with the right style and at the right tempo and then edit the drum track once the structure of the song is finalized.

Most of my songs tend to follow a formula like Assassin but it's a good idea to try different formats sometimes, otherwise your work sounds a bit samey. Bosko Schwarz is a master of this, check out some of his stuff.

Cheers,

Nigel

Songwriting for me is all about moods,feelings and everyday events. Somestimes it happens very quickly and if it,s not recorded it,s lost, sometimes it all kicks off with a subject, a riff or a hook and from there it,s just go with the flow and see where it takes you
When recording I,m the same as Nigel play the riif or chord sequnce over a drum partern that sounds ok then edit it when it,s completed.
Mainly I stick to what I know, which is mainly rock driven tunes but every now and then I,ll try somthing different jusy to mix it up a bit so as not to become bored.

Hey LESTG!

Cool topic! ;D

For me, I usually tend to start off just messing around with different chord progressions on the acoustic guitar.  When I find one I like, I will usually hum a melody line over it on the spot.  I like to have the melody line early on in the song.  That part will usually evolve into either the chorus or the verse; once I have that pretty set, I will sort of let the song follow it's own natural (or sometimes in my case, unnatural) course, trying to sort of "feel" my way from one part to the next so that there is a cohesive segue between chorus and verse or bridge.  I will usually transfer these chords to the piano to see if it might sound better as a piano-driven song than guitar.  Then I just tweak and polish until I have each part pretty set with the chords, changes, and the singing melody.

Structure: I try not to allow myself to be locked into a standard song structure, so for me, anything goes.  Some songs have three or four parts that are completely different from each other and never repeat.  Some have one part that repeats once and a middle part that doesn't.  As long as the parts seem to fit together in some way, shape or form, it works.  A lot of the structure depends on the general feel of the song ... the type of percussion it will have (pounding drums or no drums at all, etc.), whether or not it will be mostly acoustic or electric guitar, or piano-driven, and messing around with all the other possible sounds that could come into play.  After "debating" with myself and playing with the different possibilities, I decide on what works best for the song and then go whole-hog into it.  I usually have a pretty good idea of how I want the finished product to sound before I even record a note.  But sometimes things change during the recording process and the song goes into a whole new direction.

As for lyrics, they are almost ALWAYS the very last thing I do.  I always have the singing melody early, though, so a lot of times words that fit the syllabic structure of the vocal melody will pop into my head and influence the theme of the song.  The overall feel of the song itself also influences both the theme and the lyrics.  Once the theme is established, the words can be written.  Sometimes it takes days, other times minutes.

So now I am curious -- what is your writing process?

PS: I just stumbled into this post and found to my surprise that Nigel was "promoting" my music completely on his own accord and without my knowledge, and due to the fact that we only just "met" a couple of days ago and hardly know each other, I think that is one of the coolest and kindest things I have seen in a long time.  Thanks, Nigel! ;D

Good topic, I dont think songwriters talk about this enough...perhaps we are shy, secretive, or just embarrased.

First I come up with a riff.  Then another that sounds pleasing together with the initial riff.  These may become a verse and chorus.  Sometimes strolling through effect presets on the MBR alone is inspiration enough. Then I put it away for  a while...many times even forgetting about it.

If I still like it later, I develop a song structure. I may play a melody on guitar or hum something.  Then I think of words/moods/feelings that the song suggests.  From this I think of words that go along with it.  I know it may not be popular, but the online thesauras and online rhymers are helpful for this.
Then I come up with lyrics...which is my least favorite part...I always put em off to the last minute.

Usually bass lines and leads come fast.  Recording the whole thing usually comes fast too.

I will go for weeks without something I consider decent...then in a couple days the beginnings of 3 or 4 good songs come outta no where.  Last night I was watching a horror movie and one came to me!

This is a really good topic.

Davo - good point about putting it away for awhile. That is good way not to "force" the song and I think it can sometimes make for a better result.

I used to have a notebook that I would keep beside my bed and sometimes I'd wake up in the middle of the night and jot down a couple lines of lyrics. Some made absolutely no sense whatsoever, but some were pieced together to form some fairly decent songs.

The key (I think) for lyrics is to just keep writing stuff down, whenever the inspiration hits (use sticky notes, a cigarette pack, a napkin, etc.), then go back and re-visit these scraps of inspiration to build your masterpiece.

Yep - writing lyrics and chords down is essential. There are so many 'great' songs that I've created before going to sleep only to find they've disappeared without trace in the morning. I also try to 'hardwire' chord progressions into my brain by playing them over and over until I simply can't forget them.

First of all, touching on a burning background issue, I would definetely agree that this type of topic should hope to include anyone who has a BR, regardless of numeric designation. The bits-of-paper-everywhere route posted by others etc ,should touch a chord with anyone who has ever wanted to write anything. Anyone ever recall writing that 2-page masterpiece while drunk, only to sober up and find it's the biggest pile of garbage ever?!
Myself I have literally carrier (grocery) bags full of jotting done over the years. God knows I'll have to write a Will, because you can bet that my Family will dump the lot!

Here's 3 snippets from my pad at the side of the computer:

Well I climbed and kept on climbing,
But the peak I never saw.

****


You can't build a home, or contain a cold,
Holding a tissue of lies.


****


Spent my time in Retirement Town
Biting my nails and wearing a frown
Can't get used to just sitting around
Gotta say goodbye to Retirement Town.


****


Sh*t, it's no wonder I feel depressed sometimes with all this lot churning around my Grey Matter!

QuoteYou can't build a home, or contain a cold,
Holding a tissue of lies.

Now that is a great line SteveB.

As for my method,  I do something like what you do Steve, I constantly have snippits of lines of potential songs running through my mind all the time.  I usually don't write them down.  Once in a while a small phrase will come to me while I am strumming on my acoustic, and if I am organized enough to write it down, I have my next song, it goes from here.  It is a chord progression and a phrase that sparks my next song pretty much everytime.  Once I get one of these song seeds, then I get singleminded and do not drop it until I have a finished song.  It may take a week or a month, but I can't stop until the thing is finished.  The little bit of words that first comes may end up verse or chorus or bridge, I usually don't know at first.  I just find chords to fit in, find a basic structure, record a basic acoustic track against a simple drum track to get started.  Then I fill it all in, layer by layer.  When the music is finished, guitar solos and all, then I finally get back to lyrics and spend a couple of days or even a week writing the lyrics based on that first bit of lyric that I had and the sound/mood of the music.  I find the whole thing to be mysterious, I never know how it will turn out until finished, and I am always surprised.  It is a great and consuming hobby for sure.  The part that always amazed me is all the little choices you make along the way, each choice setting up new choices, each one taking you in different directions.  Then there is the moment when it all sort of comes together, and I can see where it will end up.  But all those little choices along the way really facinate me.

A couple examples of these "song seeds":  My last song "Everyday Hero" (https://songcrafters.org/forum/br-1200-b68/everyday-hero-(original)/0/)  started with the line in my head "I am both a coward and a hero inside" and it went from there to where it ended up, an acoustic folk song about slaying a beast that turns into a Blues rock freak out ending with a folk rock outro.  I had no idea it was going to turn out like this when I first started  :D.

My second last song "Perfect Day" (https://songcrafters.org/forum/br-1200-b68/perfect-day-(original)/0/)  started with the line "If we really listen, the only sound we will hear, is our own reflection in the mirror", that was the line that I had in my head.  Also Ferryman introduced me to Joy Division by saying my voice reminded him of Ian Curtis, so I was listening to a lot of Joy Division, and the song ended up being very loosely about Ian Curtis (or a man trying to survive his demons), because I was thinking about him so much at the time.  

The third song ever I wrote (about 8 months ago)  "Katherine Lynn" (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br-b65/new-song-have-a-listen/0/), The entire line came to me while playing my acoustic, kinda country/Neil Young style guitar one day: "She stands tall, Taller than the Mountains, She'll never fall, thats just not her way, More youthfull than any fountain, that was found on that day".  Pretty much that whole phrase came into my mind as I stood in my kitchen one morning and played my acoustic.  I grabed my book and pen and wrote that one down, the song went pretty quickly from there.  It ended up a little country folk sounding, about a girl named Katherine Lynn (that sounded like a good country folk kind of name).  

I guess the point for me is to pay attention to the thoughts rattling around in your head and when a line comes to mind that is interesting or pleasing to think about, write it down, grab a guitar and find chords that sound good against that phrase.  That small seed could be the start of a song if you choose to pursue it.  That is my long-winded explaination of my method.  Until I got my microBR a year ago I never tried to write a song in my life, I was just a guitar noodler, this little machine and the encouragement and example from the folks on here got me started, and it is really a lot of fun for sure.  I can't stop now.

BB - These machines (Of whatever make or configuration), have certainly unleashed hitherto unknown potential in a lot of people. Though it has to be said, that sometimes that in itself is not enough. I got to this Forum by joining a Yahoo Group dedicated the BR1600 - it was the closest I could get to finding anyone else with my particular BR, the 1200. The machines and the potential are only part of the equation, sooner or later most people want to 'put-product-on-shelf', in the sense that they would like some honest feedback on their wares, well; more than a Wife/Husband/Girlfriend/Mother/Friend telling you that, 'Yes, it's wonderful. Now can we go eat?' - it is the adage of Every Artist Needs Reaction - and I think that's ultimately true. Another poster said (It may even have been you BB?), that they get very nervous when presenting a new song to the Forum, because essentially you have a raw-soul that is easily scratched. I think we all share that feeling. I have never yet bought-into anyone (Not just here, but in any Artistic endeavour), who flippantly discurse: I don't care what people think of my work. NUTS! If you don't care then you're in the wrong field of human activity.
And finally, just imagine living in a time when these electronic marvels were yet to be invented, how many unwritten snippets, lines, verses, choruses, etc etc would have never seen light of day. Very sad. Keep writing BB, it's why we're here.  ;)

Good question. When I write it has to just flow out of me, if I try too hard I tend to hit roadblock so I usually just sit back and wait and sooner or later it comes.

I do not use a format or consider anything I write trial and error. Most things I write follow no format. Sometimes I start with music and fit some lyrics into later. Sometimes I write some lyrics and fit them into some music later. Sometimes I collab with ppl and their music inspires words. It's really a wash for me, but hey I'm no pro. I think the best is finding your own direction and running with it.

BossMicroBRew

We Just play how we feel.......

Music always comes first.....

We add until we cant add any more.......then stop...


If Somethings to bassy, be add something high.... etc etc...

Lyrics last always come last...

Peace all

T(Osckilo)

As most my songs are metal it always starts with a good riff. From this i have a fair idea how i want the song to sound. Call it inspiration,call it blatantly ripping off my favourite bands ;)
The circle of fifths can help with changes in key when i get stuck. Does anyone else use this?
I find the arrangement of the song the most difficult part. I have used Magix Music Maker in the past. You record riffs individually and are then able to cut and paste to your hearts content in Magix. The sound is terrible but you get to demo your arrangment and figure out the song.
Although sometimes it's better to just press record :)

I have no rules for songwriting, but most often one of these things happen:

1. I get a line of lyrics in my head with a potential ... often a melody comes along with it. I that case the song often writes itself. Sometimes in 10-20 minutes, sometimes it takes days, but I feel the progress all the way.
The first verse of this one follows that rule: Sleepless Night (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br-b65/sleepless-night/0/) (the rest of the lyrics took months) and it will be redone ... soon(ish)

2. I fool around with a guitar finding some riff or chord progression that seems nice. When it "settles" I try to grasp the feel of the finished song (sometimes there can be several possibilities) and find a theme or an image too hook the lyrics to. (I often visualize the song before any words come at all) This process can take time. In the process of writing the lyrics the music often have to change a bit to fit the rhythm of the lyrics, but usually not much.

My most popular song on this site "This is a song" (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br-b65/this-is-a-song-(the-closest-i%27ve-come-to-country)/0/) was written in that way. And here the lyrics came after just a few minutes.

3. On some occasions  1. and 2. happens almost concurrently, and everything just fits at once. It doesn't happen often, but the result is often of my best work.

The one I'm perhaps most happy  with happened like that: "Waiting" (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br-b65/brand-new-song-%27waiting%27/0/)

Here the first melody-line of the verse came from the melodic guitar-"riff" and I just started sing "I am sitting on a chair" as that was what I was doing. And the rest just came naturally

4. Collabs. That's a new thing to me ... well sort of ... I've been in a couple of bands, but usually I've written most of the songs myself, and the arrangements have been a band task.

On collabs here on this site I've both handed over instrumentals to ORH, and got music from different people, that I've added melody/lyrics to.

Where I've provided the music, I've been stuck on lyrics and ORH has a special gift and have made some beautiful music out of my simple arrangements. Like on The Mountain Song (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br-b65/the-mountain-song-music-by-geir-lyrics-by-orh/0/)

Where others have provided the music, I've tried to get the "feel" of the music, and find a Lyric that fits, melody comes from the combination of the lyrics and the mood and arrangement of the music. Inspired by others here (read ORH :) ) I've tried the "stream of thought" approach on some ot these collabs, like on this one:
"T.O.o.B.E.o.T.A (Raga)" (https://songcrafters.org/forum/micro-br-b65/%27t-o-o-b-e-o-t-a-(raga)%27-*(original-by-osckilo-and-geir)/0/)

The feedback and inspiration I get on this site have helped me produce more music the  last 4 months than I did the last 10 years and inspiration is a major part whatever method I use writing songs !!!

QuoteI see it more as "receiving" a song rather than "writing" a song.

when i do lyrics/vocals in collaborations with others (jemima's kite, hooper, satchwood, geir, osckilo, ferryman etc) providing the music it feels exactly like i am channeling some unknown well.
i tend to listen to the tune a couple of times to get an idea of the structure of the song, uno verse chorus bridge et al. usually when i am doing this i can tell right away if i can write a lyric for the tune. i then turn on the onboard mic and sing stream of thought sometimes gobbldygook, and see if a title or theme/topic appears once i get the topic/theme/storyline idea in my head. i hit record and see what happens, sometimes it comes out right first time but generally the lyrics need a few tweaks here and there. but they just come from out of the air it seems.
with regards to hooper, he has a clear idea of the structure of the song, so when he sends a tune i pretty know where and when to sing verse refrain etc, he may provide a title and leave the rest up to me.
with greeny, its also very easy, as he structures his tunes with a lyricists ears, so you can see where the verses and choruses are gonna fit pretty quickly.

but like tim said earlier there is no set pattern.
when i am doing my own complete songs, i tend to bang on the guitar till something appears and then come up with lyrics, other times i get a tune in my head with words, but being a crap musician it can be difficult to get the song the way i want.
recently with jemimas kite. i used a drum beat and sang my song over it with no other instruments. mike (flash harry) and tim (greeny) then created the music around my vox and drums. so no set rules other than try not to have set rules or you might get repetitive.

Quote from: Geir on July 07, 2009, 06:06:56 AMThe feedback and inspiration I get on this site have helped me produce more music the  last 4 months than I did the last 10 years and inspiration is a major part whatever method I use writing songs !!!

Well said Geir! As a new member on this site, I agree with this statement 100%. I have played my guitar more in the last couple weeks than in the last 2 years. I am looking forward to contributing a song to the Woodstock Fest and hopefully colloborating with some of you in the future.

The music and information on this board is very inspiring, especially when you see what people can do with minimal equipment (but maximum talent). Unfortunately, the opposite usually applies to commercial music.

- Vann

1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

Quote from: M_Glenn_M on July 08, 2009, 07:54:46 AM1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

That's me as well :D

I've got loads to say on this topic - a very cool topic... but I'm just about to leave work and struggle home... so I won't start.

Hopefully I'll remember to come back to this one :)

Quote from: AndyR on July 08, 2009, 09:56:51 AM

Quote from: M_Glenn_M on July 08, 2009, 07:54:46 AM1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

That's me as well :D

I've got loads to say on this topic - a very cool topic... but I'm just about to leave work and struggle home... so I won't start.

Hopefully I'll remember to come back to this one :)

I hope you don't forget Andy, I would really like to hear your take on this magical art of songwriting.

Quote1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

i think i might be the reverse of that, if i find im struggling on a song i usually bin it, cos the ones that come quickly are usually the best. that said hooper's made me sweat hard on a few songs, but at heart im just a lazy sod.

New one for me that I found out the other day....

ORH's "stream of thought" stuff really works for lyrics for me..........

With the MBR, you can just record/speak your thoughts onto a track and then sing them onto another without stopping to write anything down....

It Keeps the feeling flowing really well....

 

I don't write the songs, they visit me and if I'm lucky they'll let me write them down.

                                                    henwrench

I try to start out with a basic idea and just add on to it, like come up with a drum line and build the song up around it.  Improv is a big part of it.

QuoteI don't write the songs, they visit me and if I'm lucky they'll let me write them down.

                                                    henwrench

that sums it up for me

What a great topic. Maybe the greatest of all time.
Now it's been 15 minutes since I wrote that last line and so much has gone through my mind and haven't written down a thing. lol
Well first I always thought I would make such a great writer of songs but I never was able to write a song. Then after meeting other wanna be song writers I realize we all had something in common. We were confusing the two phrases" It comes naturally to me" with "It comes easily for me". (This is all just my opinion) But I think that writing coming naturally for someone only means that they have the aptitude to do it and not that it is always easy for them to do. Just think of your favorite athlete, the best Football player, Baseball player, Boxer or golfer in the world. You can make the argument that their particular sport, came naturally to them but to be that good at it, there's nothing natural or easy about. Hey you can be an athlete but to be a good athlete takes hard work and commitment.  I feel just that way about song writing. Look a lot of folks are gifted with the ability to link words that rhymes. Be it poems or songs. And most of us start out that way but when you get down to it, I believe there is something more important to the song or poem, than its words. It is its Soul or its Emotional content. I remember when I first started trying to write songs and lets say I just finished a verse but something just wasn't right about it. It was like pulling teeth to get myself to erase a line that took me so long to come up with. Now I call it falling in love with my own words. Just because it rhymes and fits the space and it really doesn't take away from the piece. When the question should be, what does it bring to the piece.
I still struggle with this all the time. But I strongly believe that if you create your songs or poems with strong emotional foundation then you can take out , what you consider to be the best verse in the song and replace it and the song will be just as strong. Because it's not about the words it's about the feeling. For instance say the songs about on a great night out and there's a verse about two buddies working in dead end jobs that they hate. But come Fridays they fill their cooler with ice and beer, jump in the pick up, grab a couple of girls head on down to the lake, light a fire and party like haven't a care in the world. Or replace that verse with, a trucker makes it back home after a back braking week on the road with barely enough money to pay the bills. He sees his loving wife who has been waring herself ragged keeping the home fires burning and he decides that she deserves a night out. So they get all dressed up and he takes her out on the most expensive and romantic night of dining and dancing of their lives, as if they haven't a care in the world.
See it really doesn't matter which words you keep or throw out because the song was created with a strong emotional foundation which remains intact even if some words are removed. After some work you'll find other words to replace them but it will be up to you to decide whether they are filling space and not really taking away from the piece or if they actually bring something to the piece(song).
Now guys I'm not making any claims to be a great song writer, by any means. Nor am I claiming to successfully adhere to these principles all the time. But these are some beliefs that I have formed doing my brief journey, as a fledgling songwriter. This is the first time I actually took the time to articulate my view on the subject. Sorry about the length guys but it felt so good to get it out.
After this I'm not sure if anyone is even interested in my actual writing process. But to make it brief, I always starts with the music.
This is how it happens when I start completely from scratch(no ideas)
1st- I find a chord progression that I feels goods.
2nd-Play it over and over using figure picking
3rd -Record a rough arrangement and listen some more
Here is where I get a little loony.
4th-I listen until I can almost here a faint vocal track-right under the rhythm of the figure picking- It's usually part of whats to become the chorus which almost always includes to title.
Another loony thing.
Just before this happens I begin to get a sense of the emotion tone of the song or its emotional foundation. Then it's like the smoke begins to clear and the stories slowly begin to reveal themselves.
5th- Once the song reveals its Emotional tone and the Chorus to me, I create the verses.
And then I must decide whether the verses merely hold the song together or if they propel the story forward. But if I just listen to the music and not fall in love with my own words, I can usually feel what works and what doesn't.

Thanks for the opportunity,guys.

-Nelson
 

Quote from: AndyR on July 08, 2009, 09:56:51 AMI've got loads to say on this topic - a very cool topic... but I'm just about to leave work and struggle home... so I won't start.

Hopefully I'll remember to come back to this one :)

You didn't !

And I really wish you had !!

Hi All,
Newbie to this forum...found this from a mention on the Fender forums...been writing songs for a long time now, but I'll begin by confessing that I wasn't aware at first that this has evolved from a Boss users forum, and I'm a long time Tascam guy.  :o

As to songwriting...well, it varies, but I generally start with a musical idea. I'll hear something playing in my head, and I'll grab a guitar and work out the rough idea. Once in a while I'll have a lyric or at least a subject in mind, but more often than not, the genesis is music.

For those times when I do have a subject in mind, it seems to flow pretty easily, and the subjects are mostly just commonplace, everyday things. For example, I work as a field technician - basically, I drive from one customer location to the next, repairing networked commercial printing equipment. A few years back, I had to cover a driving territory in downtown Boston, which is a driving nightmare...the city seems to be filled with one way streets, all going the wrong way, and getting a parking spot is not unlike winning a lottery.

A few months of this nightmare gave rise to a song titled Midnight Train (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=138556&songID=2438355 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=138556&songID=2438355)), which was all about wanting to get back to the area I was more familiar and comfortable with.

More recently, I'd read Stephen King's newest book, "Under The Dome", and for those who are familiar with the book, the protagonist is falsely accused of crimes he didn't commit, which is an uncomfortable situation that we're all familiar with to some degree. That situation was the inspiration for a song titled Can You See (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1012399&songID=8439423 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1012399&songID=8439423)).

Anyway, these are just two examples of how the songwriting process works for me!  8)

My process, as stated before, changes. But there are general tendencies.

I pick up the guitar and play something. Desert Rain was that little arpeggio chord sequence played over and over. Then eventually I sang something. I got a melody. Then after I sang a few lines almost stream of consciousness I wrote a line down. From there the first two verses kind of happened pretty quick.
Then it was playing some more to get the chorus chords. I had a melody after a few tries and went back and changed the chorus chords a few times until I basically wrote both at the same time more or less.
Then I figured out the repeat of the last line for the ending.

After it was written I recorded it. It was a good song but needed something. So I made space for a simple solo, then decided to extend it into the chorus. Then repeated that section. I heard bass on it, but nothing on the verses seemed to sound right so I just stuck to the chorus with it. I think that works really well. After that I added the solo guitar and then finally decided to try some back ground vox. Ended up adding two tracks of that to it. Turned out well, but needs some eq etc on the recording. The song itself was written fairly quickly, but it really came alive in the arrangement.

Other times I hear a line in my head and a song will write itself down. Other times it's like pulling teeth. But generally it's music then lyric for me which is different from most of the songwriters I collab with.

   I'm going to write down a bit here so I can get my head around my own head regarding process and development of a song. A simple path is a path put forth by someone else.   It's more of a jingle or pop song in that it is a persuasive writing with an agenda and a known audience. So, I have set  boundaries and limits as to where I can go with the song writing. In the end, my goal is only to create something that can be repeatedly heard comfortably without inspiring the listener to want more than what is right there.  That's all for now. I'm afraid I think I know what I'm talking about.

   I wrote the above "Ugly truth" thing because of my experience with the children songs I've written. I knew what was expected of the songs and I had to satisfy three different and specific audiences. The Teachers who have to deliver the lesson plan over a year long project and go to the schools with the plan and the song, the Permanent teachers who are responsible for the kids and the administrators in the school board all have to approve the song. The teachers and students should be able to enjoy listening to and singing the song. Administration just hears it once or twice.

  The most recent song is finished. The first song was and still is a big hit in the entire Vienna, Austria elementary school system. Yes I am a pop star! My audience is between 6 and 11 years old. The new song targets 11-15 year old kids. I'm waiting for the board and teachers to meet and give the go ahead. 

Quote from: visiblemember on March 04, 2010, 03:40:39 PMI'm going to write down a bit here so I can get my head around my own head regarding process and development of a song. A simple path is a path put forth by someone else.   It's more of a jingle or pop song in that it is a persuasive writing with an agenda and a known audience. So, I have set  boundaries and limits as to where I can go with the song writing. In the end, my goal is only to create something that can be repeatedly heard comfortably without inspiring the listener to want more than what is right there.  That's all for now. I'm afraid I think I know what I'm talking about.

   I wrote the above "Ugly truth" thing because of my experience with the children songs I've written. I knew what was expected of the songs and I had to satisfy three different and specific audiences. The Teachers who have to deliver the lesson plan over a year long project and go to the schools with the plan and the song, the Permanent teachers who are responsible for the kids and the administrators in the school board all have to approve the song. The teachers and students should be able to enjoy listening to and singing the song. Administration just hears it once or twice.

  The most recent song is finished. The first song was and still is a big hit in the entire Vienna, Austria elementary school system. Yes I am a pop star! My audience is between 6 and 11 years old. The new song targets 11-15 year old kids. I'm waiting for the board and teachers to meet and give the go ahead. 

What the...  Hey, dude! lighten up!
I wish I could say I have an evil twin. I have a lame twin, at best.
   In short, phrases or melodies bounce around in my mind. I write down the phrases in a 1/2 size notebook. I record the riffs on the bossmbr. The words and music occupy a lot of time  when I'm not thinking about something else. Next, I need time and quiet to develop anything. It takes me 2 hours alone just to get wound up and focused. And I have to have several hours into the future that won't be interrupted. with all that in order, I can start putting a song together.

Interesting topic! Most of the time I play with the guitar and some chord progressions come out that leads to a song. Other times I hum melodies and try to find the chords of those. The usual thing for me is that I have the melody first and then sing along some random words. Eventually a sentence comes up that really fits the song and I try to think of the structure of the song in order to make it fit with the topic of that sentence. Once the structure is down, I write the full lyrics and then adjust the song according to lyrics again. It's sort of a back and forth process.

For me, it's important to get to the overal feeling of the song really fast and I need a melody and a topic first before I can go into the details. Lyrics are the hardest for me though: I know what to say, but most of the time can't find the words to say it. It really looks like my real life!

It's funny though that a lot of people just sing random words too (stream of consciousness like one of the posters said) and go from there. I didn't thought more people did that!

i hear really good music i import it to my micro br and 10 minutes later i have a vox/lyric  done. i dont know how it works.

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=6561.msg83328#msg83328

I'm at a difficult songwriting phase - a problem all of my own making. I'm up to around 250 (maybe 300) original songs on the MBR, and I've tried every style under the sun, and bled every drum pattern and guitar patch dry. There are only so many chord combinations and lyrical ideas, so it's hard to find new avenues to explore. Tinkering with a piano has added a new dimension recently, but it feels like I've said everything that I want to say in the words of my songs. Lyrical ideas are therefore forming a stumbling block, and I'm having trouble coming up with new ones.

But will I give up? Will I f*ck! Something always turns up when you least expect it. And I learned a long time ago that trying to force it won't get you anywhere.

I just wish I had ORH's ability to take any feeling or concept and make a lyric of it...

Quote from: Greeny on March 15, 2010, 09:14:32 AMSomething always turns up when you least expect it. And I learned a long time ago that trying to force it won't get you anywhere.

Well said. If you look for anything you'll never find it. Wait until it finds you.

                                                  henwrench

Quote from: henwrench on March 17, 2010, 03:15:41 AM

Quote from: Greeny on March 15, 2010, 09:14:32 AMSomething always turns up when you least expect it. And I learned a long time ago that trying to force it won't get you anywhere.

Well said. If you look for anything you'll never find it. Wait until it finds you.

                                                  henwrench

You guys are both right about that.


It seems sometimes music is written with fleeting thoughs without perfect planning. God bless the individual that can say "I think I'll sit down for a couple hours and write some riveting poetry".

QuoteGod bless the individual that can say "I think I'll sit down for a couple hours and write some riveting poetry".

i think i am cursed with an insatiable drive to write lyrics for all the tunes i like. i thought it comes easy cos it all comes so quickly to me but last weekend i wrote quite a few and was absolutely knackered afterwards completely burnt out, so sat back from the forum for a couple of days to recuperate, am feeling refreshed now, but i'm sure i'll get sucked back in again this place is so addictive.

Im so lazy musically, If I cant finish writing a song in 15-20 mins I garbage it.
its musical ADD. I find that my ideas work with my skills if i move fast with it.
if I try to come back to a project half way through, I cant seem to get back into it...
although with my last two songs I have been taking a different approach. I start with a pun, or punch line, or just one good lyric, then try to come up with simple catchy riffs/rhythms to sing to. and I'm illiterate so most of my solos and lead are made up on the spot, if you were to ask me to play a solo from one of my songs I would have to re-learn it. some of them I wouldn't know where to begin (thank god it was recording)

The faster you go with an idea, the better. for me atleast.

i can relate to a lot of that antisocialworker.

Quote from: Geir on February 09, 2010, 10:10:02 AM

Quote from: AndyR on July 08, 2009, 09:56:51 AMI've got loads to say on this topic - a very cool topic... but I'm just about to leave work and struggle home... so I won't start.

Hopefully I'll remember to come back to this one :)

You didn't !

And I really wish you had !!

SO DO I!!!

I can't remember what I was going to say, and I could do with a bit of help meself...  ::)

I've been really stuck songwriting and recording wise over the last few months. Musically I've been having a lot of fun with guitars and stuff, but no songs at all.

I've got two weeks off now, so I'm getting geared up to get some stuff out (I have a huge pile of songs from years ago, which I'm relearning at the moment). With a bit of luck, recording and posting them will cause some new songs... so I'll try and get my thoughts in order at the same time and dump them in here  :)

EDIT:

Quote from: oldrottenhead on March 28, 2010, 06:57:48 AMi can relate to a lot of that antisocialworker.

+1 on the songs that I write as I record.

Most of the songs I own though were written without any recording devices other than a pen and an A4 pad!

I like threads that try to identify how we write songs.  I've contributed to several on other forums at various times.  When I look back on my replies they're all different, yet I believed them at the time.

So the things that work my songwriting muscle are probably not definable.  Maybe it's like a bubble.  It's there in the physical sense, but when you try to examine it closely - poof.

What do I do?  Well I get an idea - maybe a story (my projects), or a phrase, musical or lyrical, or a mood.  Sometimes I see, or hear something and it triggers a cell in my brain - and I jerk it around till it takes form.  It probably helps that I hate following rules - and I think my songs reflect that. In the same way I've had no formal training, so I just do what I like without worrying too much if it doesn't fit.  But whatever it is, the process is addictive and I'd hate to dry.

Done for now.

Leigh

Another avenue of where do the song ideas come from.  Mishears.  The other day I was idling a few minutes listening to some music on another site - and heard a phrase that I thought was a cool bit of nonsense.  So i wound back and relistened - it wasn't anything like what I thought.  But it's now being worked into a song.

Well while sitting on a mystic mushroom songs float down to me to be encoded,
Or more likely while sitting in a bath with my electric typewriter balanced across a board the words come to me.

Sometimes it is really easy and things just seem to flow, other times it is a major struggle that ends up getting stored away in a dark place to age for a long time before I try again.

I pick up a guitar

I put my fingers in different places at different times while hitting the strings. When I like the sound of it I try and remember what I did so I can do it again.

I try to write songs in groups that all follow a certain theme. It allows me to get different takes on the same idea and then choose the best one. Or mix n' match ideas I like into one 'best' song. Regardless, I write just to write. If all else fails, I've got a pool of bits to pick from that I can piece a song together with.

This is crazy....I don't even remember asking this. lol I'm glad I did and glad I read it again.

Sorry OHR if I was redundit in asking you this acouple of days ago...I honestly don't remember posting this :)

i thought id give this rather interesting thread a bump.

ORH,

I'm glad you gave it a bump.

You fellahs are awesome.........

This is a really cool thread. I've been a song writer for around 25 years. I started writing lyrics in the 7th grade ('87 maybe), love songs mostly. I had a friend at church a year older than me and he would write music on piano  and we would work out harmonies together. We formed many bands together through high school (I was drummer in one but mostly lead singer)but I grew tired of seeking approval on my lyrics from 4 other guys and decided I needed to learn guitar. I bought a cheap electric and amp from Sears and a chord chart poster from the music store with a few song books of my favorite albums and set off to be self sufficient. Once I got my chords down songwriting just started happening.
 I also believe that songs come to me and I'm lucky to be able to get it out. I've lost & forgotten so many songs it's rather stupid. I'm a little on the scattered, unorganized, disheveled, easily side-tracked & almost too stupid to be alive side and songs have been the one constant through my life. I stopped playing covers (mostly) and hit the originals hard back then. Did open mikes and played every chance I got, never made a dime but the songs came.I took a back packer guitar on the Appalachian Trail with me when I thru-hiked in 1996. I lived in Nashville for a year in 2000 and played constantly and wrote tons, always working some crap day job. Got an opportunity to buy an established children's entertainment company (clowns) in Tampa, FL not music but I was a professional entertainer making pretty good $ and feeling pretty proud and still writing.
Then came children and your world changes. No time, need sleep, nothing else important! Writing slowed but never stopped. I quickly however learned that I could not justify going to open mics and playing for free any more, so I kinda crawled for a few years. Then I started writing songs for my kids and discovered a whole new side to writing. Just for fun and silliness. It fit my life, career and I a ran with it. Songs had always been serious things to me, even the satirical ones, so it was freeing in a way. I also had a friend here in Tampa in the solo acoustic cover scene, he convinced me to learn some covers and once I started making $ I learned I didn't really care what I was playing as long as I was taking care of my family. I did cover gigs and wrote only kids music for a few years because they came. That side of my music is what predominately supports my family through my performances, not so much my recordings yet but I have made 2 full length CD's.  Within the last year  & more so since actively participating in this site since last Aug.  contemporary, adult tunes have been coming to me. With the fairly recent additions of Banjo, Uke, and Mandolin I've been inspired daily if not more often than that.In my opinion nothing is more inspiring than a new instrument that I can write on.
I have no pattern or structure to my process, I might have once but no more. Some songs come fast some come slow. Some start with words, others music, some come together when I start playing. It's like breathing to me. I'm almost haunted by songs and often find myself neglecting life to write and create, especially lately! It's all about inspiration to me and I am inspired by almost everything, my life, other peoples lives, fictitious lives, festivals.Within the last few years I have tried to grow as a songwriter by challenging my self. When my kids were younger , they would give me an idea for a song and by the morning I would have to be able to play them something. I try to write a tune about whatever book I'm reading, etc. I'm a songwriter if I'm anything. It's what I've done as long as I've really tried to do anything!
Rock on!

i'm gonna have to make this thread unread so I can consentrate on the looooong replies in the mornin' !!

hic

sorry

don't be sorry hook, it's a long and interesting thread and your addition to it is very interesting.

Quoteoften find myself neglecting life to write and create

i can relate to that big time.

.. good bump! for me works this way (now, when younger was different) - I just use to whistle what comes to my head fitting the mood of the day: most of the times I'm whistling/humming some tunes that I know, but other times I find myself creating something (or at least I think so ;-). When it happens I record it immediately with my mobile phone and later on I complete that cool riff with some 'rules' till I have a chorus or verse melody, then add lyrics...

Don't worry Hook, it's a really interesting read !

I've never been one for lyrics - not being a singer, when I have tried, my lyrics always sound awkward and overly complex. I've never got my kicks from lyrics either - I like chords and sounds. I love the sound of someone singing, but lyrics quite often pass me by. So this makes my creativity somewhat simpler, and I've always enjoyed writing with other people. In the past I wrote by brute force, playing and picking up on interesting changes and progressions, some would work, some wouldn't. But would write as a pair. I lost my main musical collaborator and great friend a few years back - and was a little lost from music for a few years.

These days. kids and work means limited time - so I don't have the luxury of endless deliberation - so have to work fast. I tend to work from the beat up. Select a beat/loop. Then I'll play mainly guitar till something works that I like or keys - but something rhythmic, then the lead, and usually finally the bass and perhaps some keys. I find that one thing/idea leads to another - and the piece takes shape. Most of the recent posts have been done in one session, probably 3 hours max - starting with a blank sheet, no song, no ideas - through to final mix. That's why they are short! Normally once I start recording - something will come out, if I'm not inspired - I don't press record. It is for this reason that I love the  BR - it is immediate, unlike PC's which unless dedicate never seem to behave as you would like, and once you've fixed them, the moment is gone.

I plunk around or jam away on a guitar, acoustic, electric, or keys but they all produce different song style thoughts for me. The acoustic is usually a mellow love type song or a humorous one. The electric is more rock oriented and the keys...who knows? I try to find an interesting chord structure, or just a cool sounding chord, or maybe a good rock riff then play with it until I get comfortable at playing it. A lot of times while doing this an accompanying idea pops up. Then I'll decide where they belong in the song, like is it a verse, chorus or bridge. I'll hum along or just sing any words that pop into my head to get a good sounding melody. Not always but sometimes those first words become part of the lyric.

Most of my songs have a lyric structure like this: 2 verses, a chorus, another verse, chorus, bridge, solo, chorus. Now the order is subject to change by mixing and matching. Like one verse, chorus, verse, chorus, solo, bridge, verse, chorus. The solo section is usually the same chords as a verse.  

I write my lyric to match my song layout. I also try to keep my lyric lines relatively the same length.

Sometimes this process happens all at once and other times I separate out the sections and work on them one at a time.

If I'm not completely happy with the lyric, I'll keep them with me throughout the day and make the changes as they come to me. At the end of this process I have a song ready to record.

I'm sure my process is close to the same as many songwriters here.

Now don't think me crazy, eccentric, or odd but I once dreamed a song. I woke in the morning from a dream hearing this cool melody and chords. I immediately got and started playing the song. It became the basis for my song Trippin' Down A Different Road.

Ok......maybe I am a little (((((CRAZY)))))),   :D

Farrell

I used to loose a lot of songs I go both ways sometime a riff and build off that and other time lyrics. I keep a log on my comouter now and in the studio and will write down ideals lyrics when they hit me sometimes the lyrics maybe only the chorus or part of the verse and there they sit until one day I am noodling or thinking of a song base and there it is might have been sitting the write file for years. Seem to work out better for me this way
Tim

i've already spoken on this, but i so far, am finding it easiest r=to write the vocals and melody after the song is done or mostly done. this way i dont have to write around the lyric which might take away from where the song might be going. and in this way i can compliment the song, by adding the words and melody to it, rather than writing around it. which is ok, but not a preference.

FM - A few songwriting friends that are almost exclusively lyric first say the exact same thing. Only they change the places of music and lyric. They say the song (music) should support the lyric/vocals. That doesn't mean the melody comes first, but the lyric should be good/finished so that the instrumentation and arrangement all support the lyric.

Personally I do music first because it feels right. But I have to admit, sometimes I get a lyric that is the opposite of what the music sounds like. Often a very sad or disturbing lyric on a nice happy melody. Which is fun, and I like it, but sometimes puts ppl off.

Quote from: T.C. Elliott on May 21, 2012, 10:00:32 AMPersonally I do music first because it feels right. But I have to admit, sometimes I get a lyric that is the opposite of what the music sounds like. Often a very sad or disturbing lyric on a nice happy melody. Which is fun, and I like it, but sometimes puts ppl off.

Yeah T.C. I end up there myself on occasion. A sad song with light hearted words or just the opposite.....but I think that's quite fine because it can make for an interesting listen......maybe that's why I don't have any major successes, lol.

Farrell

They call it quirky.  ;D
I just realized that over the winter I wrote several songs lyric first. A nice person in the U.K. posted several lyric pages and I put some of them to music. I was pretty darn happy with them, too.

There's no formula....ok wait I guess there is a formula... and perhaps a couple....but the key is, in my humble, worthless opinion is to forget everything anyone says and do what feels right. We are writing and the idea is to be creative, nothing helps creativity like changing things up. If you always write a certain way, switch it up, who knows what you might get! Or don't, who cares! Be honest, explore your heart, play with passion and good things will come!
Rock on!

saw a spider looking at this thread and had a read through it again. the thing that seems to be consistent with my songwriting of late,not collaborations where i might provide a lyric but my own complete songs/sketchs. is i have a lot of different approaches and try to mix things up. the approach is usually dependent on
1. time available
2. location
3. instruments at hand.

in some cases i may pick up an acoustic guitar or my ukele and strum out some chords and warble over the top till something comes. in such cases i either come up with nothing or a song appears very quickly out of nowhere.

sometimes a song or idea for a song can form in my head, then the difficult part is getting that down. either writing the lyrics or grabbing whatever instrument i have to hand and trying to get an approximation of what is in my head.

when i have some time on my hands, i will spend time building a rhythm track either from scratch using midi in cubase. or using drum loops and building them up on another daw, i cant recall its name but came preinstalled on my new pc. or building drum tracks on my micro br, my juno di or drum machine. once i have a drum track and a bit of time, i will mess about with different instruments to see if it sparks any inspiration. of late i have dug out my bass guitar, having rarely used it, its like having a new colour to paint with.

learning a few new chords or messing with different effects can also provide the inspiration for a bundle of new songs too.

the downside for me is if i find a new way of doing things i can get into a routine and then it get's a bit like flogging a dead horse and songs start sounding the same, uno sticking to one formula.

so mix up your approaches and hopefully add some freshness to things. as i said of late ive been getting out my bass guitar, and getting a lot of inspiration from it, but already i am worried that pretty soon, that things will start getting formulaic with that too. so i think i need some new colours for my palette, maybe a mandolin or a wee electronic sampler thingy i got my eyes on. bloody gas.

Oooo I can't believe I haven't commented on this thread before (must be a first!). I find my best songs tend to be the ones that are in my head, 90% formed (mostly lyrics but sometimes lyrics and melody) and then I rush to get them down on paper/recorded as quickly as possible and see if I can actually play them. I then always leave them for a day and come back to them to finish off the melody and usually add a chorus (the subconscious is a wonderful thing). I like to think about my songs a lot. Those that are performed are constantly revised, I'm completely ruthless and it's normal to change something on the night to fit in with the venue/audience.

Sometimes I have to write to a theme and or deadline (which is horrible and very rarely successful - I had to write 20 mins of new material in a week once, which is basically 4 songs - never again!) and my 'inspiration' is the initial spark of an idea or notion.

If I'm struggling with a song for more than 2 days, I'll walk away and usually pinch one or two ideas from it for something else.

I'm not sure how useful this is to anyone else but my advice would be to always keep a notebook and pen handy (I like the physicality of actually writing it out) or a recording device to capture ideas whenever they might occur.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how you do it, it's the fact that you're actually doing it that counts.

Here's my approach...

Begin by thinking "What kind of piece do I want to write?" I may be after a classic rock vibe, or blues, country, jazz... whatever. I may even have a specific track in mind & be thinking "If only I'd written THAT..."

Next, I write down a list of attributes I want the tune to have... what sort of BPM; should it be happy or melancholy; how much light & shade etc.

Finally, when I have a general plan sorted I'll write three contrasting chord progressions: Verse, Chorus & Middle Section. This is where I love to play with key changes & shifts in tonality - a verse in Am going to a chorus in Eb major for example. I then tend to arrange the component parts into something like this format:

Verse 1 - Verse 2 - Chorus 1 - Verse 3 - Chorus 2 - Chorus 3 - Middle Section - Verse 4 - Chorus 4 - Chorus 5

Then it's a case of coming up with a melody - this is the easiest part for me. It's just a case of tying strong chord notes together with whatever scale is appropriate for the underlying chord progression. I'll then spend days learning to play that melody in every position on the neck, getting ultra-comfortable & familiar with it until I can improvise around it & phrase the notes differently (bends/slides/hammer-ons etc.) without thinking too much about it.

The very last stage is to come up with an intro & ending, as well as doing the more "free-form" solo part. Intros will usually be a chunk of the chorus - getting the hook in right at the outset of the song is a nifty little ploy to get the listener interested from the very 1st second - or just turning over the 1st chord of the verse, or some riff based on it. As for the ending... you can't beat a solo over the chorus part with an ascending key change or two as the whole thing builds to a climax or fades out.

It might sound a bit cold & clinical (or even formulaic) to write music this way, but I can usually craft something along these lines & at some point the inspiration will kick in and I'm off & running  :)

I wanted to write a song about standing strong together, you know the sum is greater than the parts and didn't have anytime. So I set the BR on record and got on with stuff I needed to do and this is what came out - it's the first part of just over 3 mins and is unedited. It's very faint as I didn't check the levels. I really like just seeing what turns up . . .

(I'm bending down on the last you which is why there's no control!)

Take my hand

Take my hand and know I love you
Take my hand and know I'm true
Take my hand and hold me in your heart
And know that I will always love you

So take my hand, we'll walk together
And chase all the blues away
And take my hand and hold me
Hold me, forever and a day

Take my hand along our journey
Take my hand and hold it true
Take my hand and know I love you
Take me with you in everything you do

And stay close by my side
In everything we do
And know down deep in your very heart
I love you

That was great :)

I have to write in deep about this technique I developed with a couple of pals in the late 90s. We were young and had lots of spare time, so we penned a technique we called "songs that write themselves". We were just reinventing the wheel, of course, but let me share what we did back then.

We usually started writing the lyrics. We sat and everybody would say whatever would cross their minds. If it sounded cool, we wrote it down. Note that this process wasn't entirely random: we knew each other since childhood so we instinctively knew what were the other guys about and expanded on that. It was cool as we created some kind of collective mind.

When the lyrics were done, we usually rounded them up. We moved a couple of sentences, removed some tails, added transitions... but didn't fiddle much. We liked it raw.

Then (maybe days later) we did run-ups of written lyrics and began working on the music. Each one would chose an instrument, one was nominated as the singer, we hit "REC" on our tape deck, and had a go at it. Of course, there was always somebody who would take over the "director" duties and decided a style or a chord sequence, or maybe a riff. But we basicly improvised everything.

After a couple of takes it sounded completely rubbish - but it was there, recorded for eternity. We'd pass to the next song and do the same. Then another song, then another one... Until the tape was full.

Next day we would do the same. Some songs got polished, some changed completely as we didn't quite remember the original. Sometimes, the first take was so inspired that we played the tape stopping every couple of notes and wrote down complete scores of the improvisation, and learned them and played them exactly like the fist time.

Some songs, after days of fiddling, ended in great quality tunes with awesome lyrics and elaborate arrangements... But the songs wrote themselves!

The downside of this is that if you live with your parents - well, maybe they go crazy at you shouting nonsense once and again to a tape deck with your geeky friends  ;D I just found a C60 tape with the same song played like 40 times XD

When I find the time I will record raw versions of some of my fave songs of that era and show them to you. There are some raw jewels that just... wrote themselves!

^^^^ that was really interesting, Nathan - thanks!

I really like the collaborative approach now. For so many years I did it all myself, but it's been fun to write songs with ORH and Geir in the same room, and even over the internet with other Songcrafters. And I like the way that Jemima's Kite songs have lots of different creative input now, with everyone bringing different ideas and instruments to the table. We all know what our main jobs are, but there's so much scope in what you do with that particular song 'layer'. Throw it all together, and you have 5x the inspiration of working alone. I think there's a lot of trust involved. When you get to know each other well (as you point out here), you build up a 'collective' inspiration that has it's own feel and sound, and you can rely on everyone to instinctively stick to that collective blueprint.

Here's a link to the finished version of Take my Hand https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=21101.msg259573#msg259573 (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=21101.msg259573#msg259573)

Interesting reading...I used to write lyrics down but it would have to be while playing guitar....It gets a bit in the way for me so I now just sing and record, its stream of consciousness so can get weird and sound crap.....also use basic recording gear every thing from Smart Price Mics to ...the Ipad which is about the best I think Ill get...had two Sony Mini Disc recorders which were great but for some reason I seem to stop them working....Its strange also that I find it hard to actually write a song because I don't find it hard to write.....Have tried uploading something...now have had some advice of Greeny Ill be putting something on later.....not sure to go the safe route or let everyone hear the rough side first........although they art probably all rough..
 

Until recently I used to be a presenter on a local community radio station (unfortunately, the station folded - long story, but it was fun while it lasted). I co-hosted the Friday Drive Show, and had my own late night jazz show too. My boss at the station was also a musician & we sometimes did a bit of a "live lounge" spot which led to us doing some writing together. At the station Christmas party (after a few pints, it should be noted), I suggested we do a show where we write a song live on air.

Anyway, here's a link to the podcast of the resulting show. It's a 2 hour special, so buckle up and settle in for a couple of hours of seeing how we arrived at "The X Factor Song"  :)

http://www.mixcloud.com/PalaceFm/palace-fm-the-baron-old-down-special-070214/ (http://www.mixcloud.com/PalaceFm/palace-fm-the-baron-old-down-special-070214/)

Wow that's punky sounding, very cool! And a development that was live on the radio - awesome. Wish I had recorded some of the stuff I'd done with my buddies messing around, but it would have been painful to sift through though :)

Mark

From previous discussion off-list I think my songwriting process is a little unusual, but I'll share it in case there's someone else suffering the same "problem", or it's useful to another writer.

I write in my head.

Sometimes songs come fully formed. I've had a couple arrive this way; lyrics, melody, chords ready to roll. I do then need to write these down or create a quick recorded aide-memoire before they become fuzzy and drift apart, but I don't do anything to encourage them or sit with an instrument or a pencil working them out. A recent-ish example of this is Lightning Street (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_0mmQeE-ug).

Most times, though, I initially get a concept with some of the elements: partial lyrics and a melody being the most common starting points. I don't touch an instrument, just repeatedly "play" in my head what I have so far. This can go on for days, weeks. All the new songs I've posted to Songcrafters this year have come about via this process.

I have several tunes that are decades old and have never completed themselves, but mostly a few days is enough to flesh out the song to the point where I write down the lyrics I have, perhaps pick up an instrument and confirm the chords; maybe even record a quick demo on my phone (although I don't think I've ever gone back and listened to any of these - making the recording of itself seems to "fix" the song inescapably). At this point there'll still be lyrics missing and perhaps some structural uncertainties - how will it start and end, what will the bridge be if there is one? I work on the lyrics until they're adequate (then usually rewrite half of them during the recording process), and I keep thinking about openings and ending and bridges until I have enough of an idea to start recording.

In short, I don't touch an instrument until the song is fairly complete. The reason is that I've discovered from experience that picking up an instrument changes the song; what I have in my head adapts to what I'm capable of singing and playing. A side effect of this approach is that I will often write things I'm not initially capable of singing or playing; some of these songs I've never attempted, but others have forced me to improve my playing skills.

Yep, weird I know.

Been thinking about this myself lately... how do good songs come about. I think the great thing about music is that a lot of the time there is no real logic to how really good songs come about... it's often just a flash of inspiration from the writer and quite often he or she finds it hard to explain where it came from. If creativity were as simple as just figuring out the formula then everyone would do it and keep churning out great songs all the time.

If we try too hard to analyse or try to hard to come up with a good song then it can sound forced or not really from the heart as such, so at the moment I think just try and let it flow and if a decent idea comes, get it down and see where it goes...

But for what it's worth these days normally a phrase that I like of just a few words or so will come into my mind... a lot of the time this is when I am walking my dog :) Then if I can come up with 2 or 3 more lines to add to it I will write them down before I forget. Then it's a case of trying to find some chords to fit on the guitar and build it up from there.

Quote from: Mike_S on June 24, 2019, 04:35:26 PMIf we try too hard to analyse or try to hard to come up with a good song then it can sound forced or not really from the heart as such, so at the moment I think just try and let it flow and if a decent idea comes, get it down and see where it goes...

Absolutely - I really like playing and singing in the dark at the moment (and recording it in the dark). I feel able to connect with it better and write/deliver something a bit more honest, even if it's not about me if that makes any sense.

I just sit in the dark for a while and see what turns up - Broken was done like this.

Sometimes everything comes together at once, But most of the time I will have a thought  a saying or a hook verse  I write it down and save it in my drafts.  then in the distant future when I am playing around may hear a rhythm I like, then I have a bunch of drafts to see what fits the best.  Other times I listen to the voices in my head and you know what they are always better at the performance than me lol
Tim

Quote from: Hilary on June 25, 2019, 12:21:24 AM

Quote from: Mike_S on June 24, 2019, 04:35:26 PMIf we try too hard to analyse or try to hard to come up with a good song then it can sound forced or not really from the heart as such, so at the moment I think just try and let it flow and if a decent idea comes, get it down and see where it goes...

Absolutely - I really like playing and singing in the dark at the moment (and recording it in the dark). I feel able to connect with it better and write/deliver something a bit more honest, even if it's not about me if that makes any sense.

I just sit in the dark for a while and see what turns up - Broken was done like this.

I think we are similar in that kind of zoning out approach Hilary - recently tunes and lyrics have been coming to me when I am half asleep... as I am just lying half awake half asleep in the mornings sometimes I get an idea for a song. I guess it must be when the brain is relaxed and not a million things whizzing through it, it allows creativity in more easily.

I try to play My Way, but I just can't...and there it is, a new song ;D ;D ;D

Seriously, when playing guitar there's always Micro BR with me. When I got an idea for a song, I switch it to Mp3 mode and hit the record button and "write" the idea down. It is unusual that I can write a song instantly, but very often I come back at my "song sketch store". It is so difficult get the song done, because I must think the structure for a lyricist, get a good tone on guitar and think about arrangement etc...

In the past I would try writing lyrics, then put them to music. What I discovered is that I run into a brick wall with lyrics too often - trying to decide on a subject, coming up with right words and phrases, and cramming it into some preconceived structure. When I am finally done, the music comes easily.

What I have recently discovered is that I think I am more productive if I have music in front of me first. It seems to inspire me, and give me ideas and direction for the lyrics, instead of stumbling in the dark. It also gives me the meter and timing, and suggests the rhyme structure. It's like part of the lyrical puzzle is already solved for me. The foundation is already there to build on.

I know everyone does it differently, and it can change, sometimes. But that seems to be where I'm headed.   :)

Quote from: Frank53 on August 31, 2020, 07:40:56 AMIn the past I would try writing lyrics, then put them to music. What I discovered is that I run into a brick wall with lyrics too often - trying to decide on a subject, coming up with right words and phrases, and cramming it into some preconceived structure. When I am finally done, the music comes easily.

What I have recently discovered is that I think I am more productive if I have music in front of me first. It seems to inspire me, and give me ideas and direction for the lyrics, instead of stumbling in the dark. It also gives me the meter and timing, and suggests the rhyme structure. It's like part of the lyrical puzzle is already solved for me. The foundation is already there to build on.

I know everyone does it differently, and it can change, sometimes. But that seems to be where I'm headed.   :)

I haven't written that many songs with lyrics but for me it absolutely works better...music first, at least the rudiments of it...then lyrics...

I seem to be able to write songs every time I pick up a guitar - however it doesn't mean it's a good, or original one ...

I generally start with a guitar idea...and get that roughed in...then I get a drum track to use as a metronome to play over...and record the first couple of rhythm guitar tracks...I think just about everything I come up with starts with guitar.  Then I work on whatever else I am going to do...generally most of my stuff has been instrumental so I would work on leads and stuff...bass lines... then I would turn off the drum tracks and play my own drums on the Alesis performance pads.  I am not a great drummer but I am getting better and I really like this so it works for me.  I had to admit though that I was writing almost everything slow because of that...I decided to bump it way up and my drumming I had to work on alot...but I finally got it...and I love drums.
now that I am doing more lyrics I will usually start with a lyric theme and then write to fit the music and by the time I have done that the song is totally different than what I thought it would be.  Then I have to learn to sing the lyrics...that is work...then I add the lead guitar last....I have learned to just be ok with how long it takes and not to get in a hurry...to just enjoy the process at each point... I don't pump alot of stuff out in a hurry.

Hope everyone is Coviding properly out there and staying safe...
Love reading through these old threads.

Not sure if I posted on this thread years ago or not hahahaha
As for me, I'm usually starting with a guitar riff, and try to get it recorded onto my phone or BR-whicheverisavailable and then add the bass line/drums/vox around it. Lyrics are usually my last priority, but these days I'll sometimes get an idea for a riff or even a lyric, just a phrase maybe, and start there.
For my lyrics its usually more of a timing thing or maybe just a phrase, and honestly I'm looking more for a riff or hook to dig into.
A lot of times recently, I'll be in the truck working and just record riffs out loud by mouth lol jamming in my head out loud. (Bill&Ted Air Guitar)
Hopefully not too many people think I'm crazy haha

I actually bought for around $80 a little handheld Tascam DR-05 (https://tascam.com/us/product/dr-05/top). I can layer recordings with it, without losing the last. So I can record my voice, record again and I get a second track with another voice, leaving the original alone. Do it again, you have all 3, etc. It is a nice gizmo for demos, etc.

I recently saw an article about Steely Dan and their song Peg.
They were studio musician types and spent hours and hours and hours perfecting every little thing, the article was in detail with their quotes discussing how they tried multiple session guitarists for the solo, liked them all but one stood out, etc.
Compare that to the Dire Straits' Money for Nothing. Mark Knopfler used what was overheard by workers discussing their daily work for lyrics.
"We've got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen deliver-y-y-y-y-y!!!!"
I'd imagine he had a riff he'd been tinkering with for a while, maybe years, and this was what finally made sense to him to make it work.

Really quite amazing to see the different approaches and how they work.

What an epic thread.

Here's my process.

I start with a phrase or a story detail.  Example: Thank God That's Over.

The context of that phrase is the song, that I want to write. In this case,  it's a song about a woman in her 70s who was unhappily married for fifty plus years, and now her husband has died, and she survived into her seventies without becoming a divorcee.  It happens to be about someone I know, but I don't want to name her.  I just want to write about the feeling that she felt that she couldn't divorce her husband, because that just wasn't done in the traditional conservative religious family environment she was part of.

Then the song changed on me and became, instead of something sad or angry or broken, something happy. I didn't plan it.   The chorus became "Thank God that's all over, I'm ready for what's next".

I still want to capture the way we sometimes suffer, make ourselves suffer.  But I'll wait for the next little angle or insight to hit me.   


Warren

Somewhere way back in this thread is my songwriting process of usually writing the music and lyric at the same time. I haven't changed it up much over the years. So Yesterday I decided to do just that and write the lyrics for an entire album...then put music to them. I challenged myself yesterday to write a song lyric each day for 12 days. I'll come up with the topic during the day and write that lyric first thing each morning and repeat the process 12 times. Lyrics and rhymes come fairly easy to me but that doesn't mean they are works of poetry by no means, lol. I've decided to give myself no more than an hour each morning, including wordsmithing and re-writes, to finish a set. So far so good as I just finished my 1st and 2nd lyric yesterday morning and this morning. Only 10 more to go....wish me luck! 

Farrell

Quote from: Farrell Jackson on November 23, 2020, 10:22:58 AMSomewhere way back in this thread is my songwriting process of usually writing the music and lyric at the same time. I haven't changed it up much over the years. So Yesterday I decided to do just that and write the lyrics for an entire album...then put music to them. I challenged myself yesterday to write a song lyric each day for 12 days. I'll come up with the topic during the day and write that lyric first thing each morning and repeat the process 12 times. Lyrics and rhymes come fairly easy to me but that doesn't mean they are works of poetry by no means, lol. I've decided to give myself no more than an hour each morning, including wordsmithing and re-writes, to finish a set. So far so good as I just finished my 1st and 2nd lyric yesterday morning and this morning. Only 10 more to go....wish me luck! 

Farrell

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can't wait to hear them Farrell!!!