Songcrafters.org

It's time to vote for our next two festivals which will run from April 1, 2023 to June 30, 2023. Voting starts now and runs for 8 days. You can change your vote any time until the closing of the poll on Thursday, March 30th. To do so, click "Remove vote" to cancel your previous vote, then vote again.

This poll is for the "Covers" festival. There is a separate poll for the "Originals" festival. Please vote in both polls.

Remember, "Covers" is covers only, and "Originals" is originals preferred but covers welcome unless otherwise stated in the festival's description.

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• PythonFest - Covers of songs by Monty Python members from albums, television, or movies - including The Rutles!
• 1983 Fest - Covers of songs first released in 1983 (40 years ago).
• San Francisco Fest - Covers of songs by artists from San Francisco (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bands_from_the_San_Francisco_Bay_Area).
• Paul Weller Fest - Covers of songs by Paul Weller (including his work with The Jam, The Style Council, etc.)

Voting closed. The winner is...

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Covers of songs first released in 1983 (40 years ago).

I thought I should address some comments from StephenM's "Sunglasses at Night (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=33587.0)" post. But I didn't want to distract from comments about the song so I'll do it here instead.

Quote from: Zoltan on April 01, 2023, 01:39:25 AM

Quote from: 64Guitars64Guitars Reason: Changed message icon as song was released in 1984 so is ineligible for 1983Fest.

Hey... But it is! Corey Harts first album First Offense was released in 1983 and it contains the song Sunglasses at Night. That song among others from the album was released as a single in 1984 to promote the album.

Thanks for pointing that out. You're right. I had looked up the song's release date but neglected to look up the album release date. Apologies for that. My first thought when I read your post was "Fair enough. I'll add it to the fest". However, after thinking about it a bit more, I still find it difficult to consider it a 1983 song for a number of reasons.

Yes, the song was first released as an album track on November 11, 1983. But how many people would have bought the album in those final 51 days of 1983? Until "Sunglasses at Night" started playing on the radio and MuchMusic in 1984, Corey Hart was virtually unknown. That single made his career. So how can we consider it a 1983 song if virtually nobody heard it in 1983?

The album "First Offense" was released on November 11, 1983 in Canada. But it wasn't released in the U.S. (or anywhere else, as far as I know) until 1984.

I've stated in the past that only the first successful version of a song (the definitive version) is eligible for any of our year fests. At the time, I was thinking of cover versions where the original release was perhaps by some obscure artist and could hardly be called successful, but the cover version released in a subsequent year by a more popular artist became a hit. In that case, we'd consider the cover version as the definitive version; not the obscure original from an earlier year. This idea could also be applied to "Sunglasses at Night". I don't think we can consider the album track a success; at least not in 1983. Sure, the album sold well after the single and video were released in 1984, but I suspect that very few copies were sold in 1983. So it seems to me that the definitive version is the 1984 single.

For our year fests, no song should appear in the jukeboxes of more than one year. So a decision must be made by the admin team as to which year the song belongs in. Imagine if, hypothetically, we currently had jukeboxes for each year from 1980 to 1989 and we were accepting submissions for all of them. That's never going to happen, but bear with me while I make my point. Upon receiving a submission of "Sunglasses at Night", should we put it in the 1983 jukebox or the 1984 jukebox? It can't go in both, so we have to decide which is the most appropriate. I think that most people would agree that the 1984 jukebox would be the most appropriate one for "Sunglasses at Night". With that in mind, what happens when we eventually have a 1984Fest? There's a good chance that could happen next year since it will then be 40 years since 1984. If someone then submits a cover of "Sunglasses at Night" for 1984Fest, should we tell them that it's ineligible because it's a 1983 song? Or should we instead accept the 1984Fest submission and reject Stephen's 1983Fest submission? I'm going with the latter, unless any of the admin team disagree.

Quote from: Pete C on April 01, 2023, 05:27:19 AMShame about the fest rules.. I like the Year fests but you always have to watch out for the release date..songs that charted in early 1983 might have been released in late 1982, and songs that were released in late 1983 might only have charted in 1984. I picked one last night but it was first released in 1982, then re-released as a single and album track in 1983, so I don't know how that would fit ? Back to browsing the 1983 charts lol

Yes, it's always tricky with songs that cross over from the end of one year to the beginning of the next. Perhaps it's best to choose songs from the middle of the year so there's no confusion. I mean, if a song was written in March 1983, released as an album track in May 1983, released as a single in June 1983, and reached its peak chart position in July 1983, then it's obviously a 1983 song. Unless, of course, it's a cover of a successful song that was released in a previous year.

Quote from: BerryPatch on April 01, 2023, 08:44:31 AMAlso, I hate to beat around the bush here but I was looking around for songs to cover from 1983 and thought "Hey, there's some great Clash songs that year!" Although when I looked it up, the album was from 1982 and the single "Rock The Casbah" is from June '82 as well. Though, when I look at the banner, I see Joe Strummer up there!

The banner was created by Mike_S, so I hope he'll reply to this point. I'm not even sure if Joe Strummer is in the banner as I was never a big punk rock fan so I wouldn't recognize his picture. But I'll take your word for it. I usually ask Mike to give me a list of the artist names from left to right but I forgot to ask him about this fest banner. So maybe he can provide that list here if he sees this.

Quote from: BerryPatch on April 01, 2023, 08:44:31 AMI don't want to make anyone angry because the admin team really do a great job running the site but I'm just saying, a song released as an album track from 1983 and released as a single later is more of an '83 song methinks...

You might not think that if we have a 1984Fest in the future and you want to submit your own cover of "Sunglasses at Night". We can't accept it for both the 1983Fest and the 1984Fest, so a choice has to be made now. I think 1984Fest is the right choice.

Quote from: StephenM on April 01, 2023, 08:03:48 AMThis song was clearly released with the album in 1983.  Many internet sites including wikipedia makes this clear.  But because of my inability to connect correctly with the admin folks on the site who seem to just love to act like home owner association presidents and ride around on their golf carts to write citations to the citizens over seemingly very minor infractions I WILL NO LONGER BE PARTICIPATING IN ANY FESTIVALS!

There's no need to throw your toys out of the pram. Tantrums and disrespectful comments about any Songcrafters members, including the admin team, will not be tolerated.

To quote the site's founder from his Welcome message (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=2.0) of December 16, 2007:



That's as true now as it was in 2007. Anyone who chooses to ignore these basic rules runs the risk of being permanently banned from the site.

You seem to think that you're being treated unfairly. That simply isn't true. Many members have had fest submissions rejected, including long-time members such as Hook, hooper, and even oldrottenhead. But they accepted the rejection with grace and dignity, and respected our decision. They didn't whine and insult the admin team.

Quote from: 64Guitars on April 02, 2023, 12:59:39 AMI've stated in the past that only the first successful version of a song (the definitive version) is eligible for any of our year fests.

Oh hi! I just noticed that the discussion was here :) Thanks for explaining. It's a tough job to oversee all the posts and i honesty thought this was just an editorial error. As in many places one can see that the single was released in 84.

And of course if the rules are these and that's the way the lines are drawn i'm ok with that! Many of my songs have also missed the mark in this respect.

Purely from an historical point of view i don't agree with the view as the fact stands that the song was already out, in it's final form in 83. Regardless if it gained wider exposure at that time is irrevelant in _historical view_ as the song was clearly out that year, but i didn't remember the the way the fest rules were drawn so that's that :) There have been even full albums that were neglegted and didn't gain any wider exposure when they were originally released, and then by a fluke, or what not they suddenly gained momentum.

Anyway thanks for the taking the time to explain!

Ok, thank you 64. With that in mind, is it ok if we cover a song that was released in late 1982 on an album but released as a single in '83 and became a big hit then?

Quote from: BerryPatch on April 01, 2023, 08:44:31 AMAlso, I hate to beat around the bush here but I was looking around for songs to cover from 1983 and thought "Hey, there's some great Clash songs that year!" Although when I looked it up, the album was from 1982 and the single "Rock The Casbah" is from June '82 as well. Though, when I look at the banner, I see Joe Strummer up there!

The banner was created by Mike_S, so I hope he'll reply to this point. I'm not even sure if Joe Strummer is in the banner as I was never a big punk rock fan so I wouldn't recognize his picture. But I'll take your word for it. I usually ask Mike to give me a list of the artist names from left to right but I forgot to ask him about this fest banner. So maybe he can provide that list here if he sees this.

Just noticing this thread so quickly gonna try and clear this up. I did the banner up for this just going to google typing in something along the lines of "rock albums in 1983" then finding out who was a big artist with a release that year and put a few of them on the banner. Sometimes i visit a few sites to get info on the year but as I see there is a bit of confusion about the clash I have tried to revisit where i got my info from. It may have been here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_in_music. Strangly it has some Clash stuff in the list but puts released in 1982 in brackets. Confusing... yep, for me anyhow. I guess i must have seen the clash either in this list or another web page talking about 1983 releases.

Has to be said I did the banner pretty quick as have been busy with other stuff but I will try to keep a closer eye on stuff that can't be misinterpreted in future banners!


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Quote from: Mike_S on April 02, 2023, 04:51:56 PM

Quote from: BerryPatch on April 01, 2023, 08:44:31 AMHas to be said I did the banner pretty quick as have been busy with other stuff but I will try to keep a closer eye on stuff that can't be misinterpreted in future banners!

No worries Mike! Just thought I'd point it out. ;) Perhaps the album became more popular a year later somehow. Either way, keep up the good work!

Quote from: BerryPatch on April 02, 2023, 10:41:00 AMOk, thank you 64. With that in mind, is it ok if we cover a song that was released in late 1982 on an album but released as a single in '83 and became a big hit then?

Unfortunately, I can't think of any rule that will apply in all cases. So we'll have to look at each case when it comes up. Generally though, a successful single released in 1983 would qualify for the fest, even though the album was released in late 1982. An exception would be if the album released in 1982 was very successful. In that case, we might go with the album year (1982) instead, so the song wouldn't be eligible for the fest.

As an example, consider Michael Jackson's "Beat It" from the "Thriller" album. The single was released on February 14, 1983 but "Thriller" was released November 29, 1982. According to Wikipedia, "Thriller" is the best-selling album of all time, with sales of 70 million copies worldwide. So I think we'd have to consider "Beat It" as a 1982 song and ineligible for 1983Fest, even though the single was released in 1983 and was a number one hit.

I wish it didn't have to be so complicated. Unfortunately, it can be quite ambiguous when the album is released in a different year than the single, so we'll have to look at each case and decide whether to go with the album year or the single year. If in doubt, you could always send us a PM to ask whether the song would qualify before you start working on it.

Luckily, there are lots of songs that are completely unambiguous since the album and single were both released in 1983, the single was released in 1983 and the album was released in a subsequent year, or the album was released in 1983 and there was no single. In all of those cases, it's quite clear that the song would qualify for 1983Fest.

Quote from: 64Guitars on April 03, 2023, 12:07:34 PMI wish it didn't have to be so complicated.

I almost didn't post and feel free to ignore me all together, but why can't a single song be in two years? If it was released in '82 on album and in '83 as a single then it was released in both years and could qualify. Just make the rule that if a songcrafter covers a song then that recording can only be in a single festival. If someone else covers it for another festival down the line then so be it.

Would it be any different than say if I recorded "I wanna be like you" for monkeyfest and then someone else recorded it for a future children's fest or disneyfest or soundtrack fest. (Which come to think of it, are all decent suggestions.) Edit to add another example: A song for neilfest that someone later does for a yearfest like 1982 or something. I didn't actually look but he's so prolific, it wouldn't surprise me if this isn't already the case.

Obviously, I'm good with whatever the mods decide but I think it might avoid a few hurt feelings. I honestly cannot see a downside to having two covers of the same song on two separate fests if they were done independently of each other.

Quote from: T.C. Elliott on April 03, 2023, 07:31:57 PMI almost didn't post and feel free to ignore me all together, but why can't a single song be in two years? If it was released in '82 on album and in '83 as a single then it was released in both years and could qualify. Just make the rule that if a songcrafter covers a song then that recording can only be in a single festival. If someone else covers it for another festival down the line then so be it.

Would it be any different than say if I recorded "I wanna be like you" for monkeyfest and then someone else recorded it for a future children's fest or disneyfest or soundtrack fest. (Which come to think of it, are all decent suggestions.) Edit to add another example: A song for neilfest that someone later does for a yearfest like 1982 or something. I didn't actually look but he's so prolific, it wouldn't surprise me if this isn't already the case.

Obviously, I'm good with whatever the mods decide but I think it might avoid a few hurt feelings. I honestly cannot see a downside to having two covers of the same song on two separate fests if they were done independently of each other.

Good point T.C.  I hadn't looked at it that way till you mentioned it.

Okay, we'll change the rule. A song is eligible for 1983Fest if the single was first released in 1983 or if the album was first released in 1983, as long as the releases are in consecutive years (or the same year, obviously). And if someone else submits the song for a future 'year fest' for the other year, it will be eligible.

For example, if the album was first released in 1982 and the single was first released in 1983, it's eligible for 1983Fest and someone else could submit it for a future 1982Fest if we have one. Likewise, if the album was first released in 1983 and the single was first released in 1984, it's eligible for 1983Fest and someone else could submit it for a future 1984Fest if we have one. However, if the album was released in 1981 and the single was released in 1983 it would not be eligible for 1983Fest because they weren't released in consecutive years, so we'd ignore the single and only consider the album release year to determine eligibility. Of course, sometimes the single is released first and is included on an album in a later year. In that case, if they were not released in consecutive years, then we'd ignore the album release and only consider the earlier single release year.

Only the year of the first successful release will be considered. So, if one artist first released the song in 1983 but another artist released the song in 1972, for example, and it was reasonably successful, then we'd consider it to be a 1972 song, so it would not be eligible for 1983Fest. On the other hand, if the 1972 release was by some obscure artist and didn't have much success in most of the world, then we'd ignore that release and consider it to be a 1983 song, so it would be eligible for 1983Fest since the artist who covered it in 1983 had the first successful release of the song.

Of course, all other festival rules (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?msg=361676) still apply. For example, all festival submissions must be new recordings made specifically for the festival. So if someone submits a song for 1983Fest, that same person can't submit that same recording for a future 1982Fest or 1984Fest. However, they could submit a new recording in a completely different style for a future fest. For example, if someone submitted a rock song for 1983Fest and sometime in the future we have another Reggae Fest, then they could make a new recording of their 1983Fest song but done in a reggae style and it would be eligible for the Reggae Fest.

I hope that makes the fest rules simpler and clearer for everyone.

Thanks for your excellent suggestion T.C.

I'll add StephenM's song to 1983Fest now as it qualifies under the new rules.