Songcrafters.org

Hell of a lot of bumping going on pushing lower hit songs lower. Considering I was told this was frowned upon - seeing my tracks pushed down by this practice I am far from impressed!

If you are referring to me, then Yes, I've been pretty bumpy the last couple of days. It's not my aim impress you (or anyone). But I can tone it down. I do see what you mean about pushing new songs down.

I've been in this community for going-on 14 years, and I realized that I've missed out on a lot of good music when I was AWOL a few times for multiple months. So I'm making an effort to visit those AWOL periods and sample the music – and "Blackout Bump." I'm trying to be a better member of this community by making up for my past neglect – visiting Overlooked Gems, and Random Dozen jukeboxes. But overdoing it can have a negative effect for newer songs. I'll try and limit it to once or twice a day, while also giving new attention to new songs.

If you weren't referring to me, well, now you know my rationale anyway. And, Yeah, Other Person Who Isn't Me, let up on all that bumping!

I'm just a troll and hardly read what was being said above :D BUT i do like the (sometimes even too) warm Songcrafters community spirit, and the way people are bumping up songs that are long forgotten. Sometimes even songs from people who have since gone up to the higher orchestra.

So keep bumping away. There are diamonds in the dust that i've never heard and i'm sure the new ones also pop up at appropriate times. In fact i intentionally search for the new ones from time to time.

Quote from: Zoltan on September 21, 2022, 04:01:37 AMI'm just a troll and hardly read what was being said above :D BUT i do like the (sometimes even too) warm Songcrafters community spirit, and the way people are bumping up songs that are long forgotten. Sometimes even songs from people who have since gone up to the higher orchestra.

So keep bumping away. There are diamonds in the dust that i've never heard and i'm sure the new ones also pop up at appropriate times. In fact i intentionally search for the new ones from time to time.

I am one of those grumps that sticks to the spirit of the rules/traditions and then suffers (usually in silence) while everyone else does what they want. If everyone bumps fine. I'll bump with the best of them. But when it's just 5 or 6 - they benefit while newer songs get ignored. Lets face it. An older song with double figure comments has had it's day in the sun. If multiple bumps occur at the same time some other poor soul has their song disappear into the ether.

Quote from: Ted on September 21, 2022, 01:17:06 AMIf you are referring to me, then Yes, I've been pretty bumpy the last couple of days. It's not my aim impress you (or anyone). But I can tone it down. I do see what you mean about pushing new songs down.

I've been in this community for going-on 14 years, and I realized that I've missed out on a lot of good music when I was AWOL a few times for multiple months. So I'm making an effort to visit those AWOL periods and sample the music – and "Blackout Bump." I'm trying to be a better member of this community by making up for my past neglect – visiting Overlooked Gems, and Random Dozen jukeboxes. But overdoing it can have a negative effect for newer songs. I'll try and limit it to once or twice a day, while also giving new attention to new songs.

If you weren't referring to me, well, now you know my rationale anyway. And, Yeah, Other Person Who Isn't Me, let up on all that bumping!

It was numerous. I wasn't singling out one person.

I have read most of the rules on the site and there isn't anything I could find maybe except an unwritten rule that one should not bump them self... The good thing about the way the admins have set the thing up is that the latest juke box the songs stay up for a period of several weeks (it seems) and the list gets longer instead of bumping someone out.  So no one's song is coming off the latest juke box.  If there are written guidelines I haven't read, I would be interested in seeing them. 
I use bumps sometimes, a quite often sometimes.  I dig back through old songs and do that.  If you look at some of the songs on here there are multiple pages of bumps so the precedent is there that it's ok. 
I used to follow songs down the thread pages.  I don't do that much anymore now. 
btw, I download many of the songs as they come up and have several usb drives that I listen to as i drive around in the cars etc... or work out... as the mood hits..

I did say "frowned upon"

Quote from: StephenM on September 21, 2022, 07:16:34 AMI have read most of the rules on the site and there isn't anything I could find maybe except an unwritten rule that one should not bump them self... The good thing about the way the admins have set the thing up is that the latest juke box the songs stay up for a period of several weeks (it seems) and the list gets longer instead of bumping someone out.  So no one's song is coming off the latest juke box.  If there are written guidelines I haven't read, I would be interested in seeing them. 
I use bumps sometimes, a quite often sometimes.  I dig back through old songs and do that.  If you look at some of the songs on here there are multiple pages of bumps so the precedent is there that it's ok. 
I used to follow songs down the thread pages.  I don't do that much anymore now. 
btw, I download many of the songs as they come up and have several usb drives that I listen to as i drive around in the cars etc... or work out... as the mood hits..

. It's one of those etiquette things. I can give you an example - a new member joined this site just after me and asked how he could find older tracks by people that had commented on his song so that he could return the favour. He was immediately told that it could be construed as bumping and that is bad form. He has not been seen since. I read the "How to get more comments on your song" put up by an admin and I am pretty sure bumping was mentioned and not in a good light. I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure it was.

Found the post : https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?topic=32661.0

Now I realise this is self bumping being mentioned, but it should be no bumping or every one can bump. Otherwise only some people will be hampered. In other words - you put up a song and the next day 6 people bump their friends (or others) tracks . Your song drops down the drain, but YOU can not bump yourself back into the running.
 

I would just like to take this opportunity to say that I'm not wearing any underwear.

Blooby

Quote from: Blooby on September 21, 2022, 08:26:35 AMI would just like to take this opportunity to say that I'm not wearing any underwear.

And i would like to clarify that i don't want to bump into Bloody!

Almost forgot. There's also the latest songs player:
https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?action=festival;sa=LatestSongs

If people remember to use that then the new songs aren't going to be lost... A perfect entertainment for a car ride, or an invitation for a car crash :D

Edit: I was a bit slooow...

Quote from: StephenM on September 21, 2022, 07:16:34 AMthe latest juke box the songs stay up for a period of several weeks (it seems) and the list gets longer instead of bumping someone out.

Interacting with the Latests Posts part of this site is a very limiting way of experiencing this community. Jukeboxes are where it's at.


No amount of commenting will change your song's position in the Latest Songs (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?action=festival;sa=LatestSongs) jukebox  – if someone replies individually to every comment on their own song post, that still won't change the position in the jukebox. That is probably why it is frowned upon "a little."

Self-bumping (a.k.a masterbumping) is annoying when done in excess. But there's no way you could ever reply to the comments on your own song posts without self-bumping. What constitutes "excess?" I don't know. I've masterbumped a bunch of times – when an old song of mine presents itself to me and I want to talk about it again for some reason. Nobody has ever slapped me on the wrist.

For my own recent songs, I try to let them collect comments until the comments stop coming. And then I watch the song slide down Page 1 of the Original Songs board (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?board=91.0). When it goes to Page 2, that's when I reply to the comments, all in one shot. This MO prolongs the discussion life of the song, and gives other song posts more breathing room. If there are no new comments that merit a reply, I let it sink into possible oblivion. That's my protocol, not a rule, or even established etiquette here. I probably overthink it. I came up with this protocol before jukeboxes came along – precisely because I didn't want my craving to talk about my songs turn me into a bump abuser. 

For similar reasons, the Jukebox Primacy Principle (I just made that up) is why the site requires an MP3 for each song post: MP3s can be added to the jukeboxes, video links can't.

Well, I read the "how to get more comments thread" and taken heed of these comments on this thread. Trying to find anything on this site is a chore. I mean - I tried to check what i have uploaded so I don't duplicate and finding my own jukebox isn't exactly plain to see. I've tried not saturate with my songs. I have tried commenting on loads of songs, but it's like most sites. The input you do is never equal to the input back. So, when you have done your best and you see your 4th song with minimal interest while old songs with double figures pushing your song off the page it is disheartening. I mean, I found my personal jukebox the other day by accident and now I can't bloody find it again. I think maybe I am a square peg trying to fit a round hole.

The personal jukebox is under your name. On every post you do. Same as mine.

Quote from: Ron D Bowes on September 21, 2022, 03:10:34 PMSo, when you have done your best and you see your 4th song with minimal interest while old songs with double figures pushing your song off the page it is disheartening.

Again: Jukeboxes are where it's at. People (like me) can bump the ancient past 1000 times a day, and it won't change your song's position in the Latest Songs jukebox (https://songcrafters.org/forum/index.php?action=festival;sa=LatestSongs).

The only thing that can push your song down in the Latest Songs jukebox is another newer song. (That is why one of the few hard-and-fast rules we have here is "Don't dump your back catalog.") Currently the oldest song in Latest Songs was published 10 days ago. Only a new song will push it out of that particular jukebox.

I do think this site is not as intuitive to use as it could be. I hear you. Like, isn't it weird that you can't find a member's jukebox from their profile page? I don't know why that is. Maybe the structure of this forum software makes it hard to modify that page. Or maybe they never thought of it, and nobody ever requested it.


But over the years they have tried to do what they can with this forum software to make it easier to find music, and to encourage members to comment as much as possible.

Apart from the jukeboxes, the main menu is your friend. The very first column of the first tab will help you keep track of the topics you have started or joined – and will help you find topics you haven't seen yet. (The one I use the most is "New Replies to Your Posts.")

i think that re-visiting older songs is a great thing. i go back and listen to old stuff now and then and nearly always hear songs i'd missed when they were originally posted, mostly i admit my uncles songs.

i don't get it why some members get uptight about the amount of hits/reviews their songs get. who gives a rats arse as long as somebody has heard your tracks. i don't think there should be any ego BS on this site.

Quote from: Pru on September 22, 2022, 03:43:11 AMi think that re-visiting older songs is a great thing. i go back and listen to old stuff now and then and nearly always hear songs i'd missed when they were originally posted, mostly i admit my uncles songs.

i don't get it why some members get uptight about the amount of hits/reviews their songs get. who gives a rats arse as long as somebody has heard your tracks. i don't think there should be any ego BS on this site.

Because if your song is pushed down the list it ain't getting many listens either.

Quote from: Ron D Bowes on September 22, 2022, 07:46:56 AMBecause if your song is pushed down the list it ain't getting many listens either.

Nothing but newer songs will push your song down the list of Latest Songs jukebox.

Here's a snapshot of the Latest Songs jukebox taken just now. Your most recent two songs are there, and have been there all day – in spite of many, many comments being posted on other songs. There have been 43 comments on songs today, if I'm not mistaken. Your songs haven't budged.

Quote from: Ted on September 22, 2022, 08:11:07 AM

Quote from: Ron D Bowes on September 22, 2022, 07:46:56 AMBecause if your song is pushed down the list it ain't getting many listens either.

Nothing but newer songs will push your song down the list of Latest Songs jukebox.

Here's a snapshot of the Latest Songs jukebox taken just now. Your most recent two songs are there, and have been there all day – in spite of many, many comments being posted on other songs. There have been 43 comments on songs today, if I'm not mistaken. Your songs haven't budged.

Are_You__Being_Obtuse_On_Purpose_.jpg

I don't really use the jukeboxes, but I appreciate you pointing it out. Truth be told plays are not important to me. I get far more plays on Spotify and I am paid for it. Crap pay - but pay nonetheless. It's the interaction I came for. Without comments their ain't any intercation. As I say. I am obvioulsy square and it oughta be round LOL. No worries, I shall seek my thrills elsewhere. I shall still comment on tracks I enjoy though.

I think bumping probably goes up and down in frequency and over time evens itself out, but mostly it's never a usually big problem. People like to ocasionally pass comment on a older song for whatever reason but I think mostly newest songs get the lions share.

Generally speaking amount of comments on new songs do vary as well for whatever reason, but I find this site fairly good for people passing comment compared to other sites. But what you get out of it will be related to what you put into it. But like anything worth something in life it might take a bit of time.

Quote from: Ron D Bowes on September 22, 2022, 04:54:20 PMI don't really use the jukeboxes. ... It's the interaction I came for. 

I've been trying to convert you. You'll get the most out of this community if you learn to love the jukeboxes.



When a song is playing, you can click on the COMMENT button, and a new tab will open with that song's topic.

Yeah, I think it's a bit clunky. But I love the community here more than I love the interface. They've done a lot of work within the constraints of this forum software. But still there's a learning curve if you really want to get the most out of what goes on here.

If this were a monetized community – and thank goodness it isn't – I'm sure that the forum software would have been scrapped a long time ago, and the whole site would be optimized towards conversions – ad clicks, purchases, affiliate marketing, promoted posts, and all the horrors of the commercialized Web. Note the absence of all of that shit, as you are frustrated by bumping, and with boring people such as myself who want to make you love features that you don't want to use.

But along with our non-commercial, non-monetized bent comes our keen sense of when people are coming here merely for commercial reasons. This is no place to monetize your music, or to boost your SEO. I'm a web marketing guy. I promise you this site is a dead end for people who come here merely to pimp their YouTube channel, their music blog, their Soundcloud profile, their Apple Music page, their Spotify, their podcast, etc. I say merely because none of that disqualifies someone from participating. But the clunky factor, the learning curve is, in a way, a small hurdle that someone needs to get over; it shows that they really are here for the community first and foremost. 

There are some real professionals on this site who do all of that monetization stuff elsewhere – yet they still stick around, because this place is a sounding board, and a learning community. People come here who write songs and record at home – they do both – and after awhile, they get better at both.

I have to say that I like the bump..there are many songs made that were not listened/commented when first published and many people are happy to (re) discover it

For my part when I make a new cover I always do a search to see the ones that have been published in the previous years and it's always interesting..when I find some anteriorities I don't hesitate to talk about them or even put the link of these songs
It is good that SC has this prodigious memory

recent example Ted did a bump of my cover "Cry me a river", that I had published in 2017 that I had published in 2017 and I must say that I had completely forgotten about it...(Elzheimer?) and I found the sound of my acoustic guitar...not bad at all and so I'm going to search in my archives the plug ins used in my Daw to have this sound ;RÉ

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

There are no rules on this site regarding bumping old songs, in fact it is part of the make up of the site.

In the sampler section there are many jukeboxes, if you click on the jukebox icon at the top of the home page it automatically opens on the "latest songs" jukebox. If i haven't been to the site for a while that is my fisrt port of call, so i rarely miss new stuff.
my favourite jukebox is the on this day one. i get to remember songs i haven't heard for a while and songs i may have missed, i also will use the random player and here things i've missed etc.

The overlooked gems is also something where you can find songs that have been missed.

the only practice that is frowned upon (but again there is no rule regarding this) is when someone comments on a song of yours, you reply to every comment (unless the comment is looking for a response)a single thank you is usually suffice.

I think bluesberry came up with the expression "diving for pearls" ie, searching through the site for songs you missed or songs you loved and bringing them to the surface for a new lease of life that newer members might have missed.

so with my admin hat on i will just say that bumping is not frowned upon it is actually a part of the make-up and glue that holds this wonderful place together, though i will add the caveat, don't overdo it a few bumps a day is not excessive.

I agree with Oldrottenhead's comments. But I'll add some of my pet peeves about bumping.

1) Using the word "bump" in a bump, especially when it's the only thing in the message. That says to me "I can't be arsed to write a comment about this song but I want to bring it to everyone's attention in the hope that someone else will do the work for me." If you think a song merits a bump then please take the time to say why. And even if you do offer a comment, the word "bump" is superfluous. The fact that you're replying to an old topic that hasn't had any replies in a long time tells us that it's a bump. There's no need to say so in your message.

2) Bumping one's own topics. This is generally frowned upon. We're here to support each other; not to promote ourselves. There are exceptions, of course. For example, if you're listening to the On This Day jukebox and hear a song you posted here years ago but forgot about, then it's understandable that you might want to bump it, especially if you think it was one of your better songs. But, as I said in point 1 above, please say something about the song to justify the bump. You might want to reminisce about the work you put into the recording or the circumstances under which it was made. Or maybe there's something you hear now in it that you wish you'd done differently and you could talk about that. If it's a collaboration with another member of Songcrafters, an easy way to justify the bump is to comment on that other member's performance rather than your own.

3) Too many bumps. One or two bumps per day is probably okay. Although, even that might be annoying if everyone starts doing it. But realistically, I don't think that's likely to happen. The more likely danger is that someone goes on a mad bumping spree, posting a dozen bumps in one day. That would definitely be a bad thing. So don't just bump everything you listen to. Try to limit yourself to bumping one or two songs per day that especially merit the bump.

As Oldrottenhead said, these aren't rules that are cast in stone. They're just my pet peeves about bumping. Think of them as guidelines to bumping.

"The more likely danger is that someone goes on a mad bumping spree, posting a dozen bumps in one day."

That's me after a few malts. 😂

My take on this is ,even discussing bumps starts a bad vibe on here so it's better just to ignore the self bumpers and let it fade away back into the shadow of wence it came.
I'm also not wearing any underwear,but I'm in a separate room from blooby,mainly because it's dark and I definitely wouldn't want to risk a bump :D

Platonic bump. 

I don't think I'm guilty of doing any improper bumping*, but the way I tend to use the site is by going into my Unread Posts and trawling through those. It's possible if I'm caught up I might start getting posts from weeks/months prior, but seeing as it's genuine new content to me, I'd argue any responses to that content are valid as it's not just bumping for bumping's sake.

Agree that bumping yourself is pretty much seen as incredibly bad form on any message board; unless you have a really decent update to warrant it.

*_{"improper bumping" may have to be a term I add to my lexicon}

As I am now applying myself to enjoy the sunlit uplands of retirement - from working for the Man that is, not from life -
I am easing my way back into the more enjoyable elements of existence, which of course includes music; and I come across this,
the most perfect description of Songcrafters imaginable. Well done Ted.

Quote from: Ted on September 23, 2022, 06:13:05 AM...If this were a monetized community – and thank goodness it isn't – I'm sure that the forum software would have been scrapped a long time ago, and the whole site would be optimized towards conversions – ad clicks, purchases, affiliate marketing, promoted posts, and all the horrors of the commercialized Web. Note the absence of all of that shit, as you are frustrated by bumping, and with boring people such as myself who want to make you love features that you don't want to use.

But along with our non-commercial, non-monetized bent comes our keen sense of when people are coming here merely for commercial reasons. This is no place to monetize your music, or to boost your SEO. I'm a web marketing guy. I promise you this site is a dead end for people who come here merely to pimp their YouTube channel, their music blog, their Soundcloud profile, their Apple Music page, their Spotify, their podcast, etc. I say merely because none of that disqualifies someone from participating. But the clunky factor, the learning curve is, in a way, a small hurdle that someone needs to get over; it shows that they really are here for the community first and foremost... 

Lack of sleep and running on empty. Revisiting this thread made me to think of a song called "Burping for Peace". I almost went and did it. Almost.

I guess the takeaway here is that Songcrafters can be weird...

Hmm. We've had this discussion a few times in the past. Generally commenting is a good thing to give feedback. I think the only issue is a self bump.

I take the view that everyone dips in and out using whatever selection criteria, and if I listen, I do like to comment. It is an impossible task to listen to or read every single post. I do take the point that its frustrating to feel that your creation is not getting the listens and slowly moving down the order. However, its a relatively small community (its not like youtube) and we've all have tracks that we are proud of, getting very few comments before disappearing onto the dreaded page 2. I don't think there are any simple answers, other than comment lots and be visible on the site and I'm sure those comments on your tracks will come.

B