I just stumbled upon the following article at Reddit and I thought it might make an interesting topic here at Songcrafters.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMakers/comments/51ycbg/what_do_you_do_when_this_happens_songwriting/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMakers/comments/51ycbg/what_do_you_do_when_this_happens_songwriting/)
This seems like a really common songwriting problem. You're farting around on your guitar, keyboard, or whatever and come up with an interesting riff or chord progression. You might even have an idea for some lyrics to go with it. But, after you've repeated this riff or chord progression for several measures, where do you go next?
I think songs need several distinct sections to provide hooks to the listener. At the very least, you need a chorus and verses. Better still, you should also have an intro, a middle-eight, and an ending. But how do you take your initial idea and then come up with something that compliments it for the chorus, middle-eight, intro, and ending? I find that a lot of songwriters struggle with this, so they end up repeating the same riff or chord progression endlessly without much variation, and I find that very boring. Or sometimes songwriters will write a chorus but it really isn't very different from the verses. I think the chorus should be very distinct. This can be achieved by changing the instruments, the key (minor to major, for example), the tempo, the vocal style (for example, soft on the verses and screaming in the chorus; or a single voice in the verses and multi-layered vocals in the chorus), etc.
Anyway, if you have any tips or thoughts on the subject, please share them here.
Everything can be a creative exercise. I like to sit in libraries and just look at book titles , I'll get lost of ideas for lyrics. Eves drop on people, great fodder for songs. TV , books and movies and news are all great places to look for inspiration to write lyrics,poems,songs.
As far as music is concerned, I don't like to give much thought to any particular sequence before I write, I play, listen and let the song come out. Over the last few months, I was writing kids songs and I did need to concentrate on hooks and catchy melodies, hopefully I got some. As much as I contemplated writing with some schedule and process, I ended up writing like I always do. Some tunes come fast and all together, others I would struggle a few days.
I had one school over the summer I visited 8 Mondays in a row to do concerts based on their theme, cooperation, kindness, the beach, camping, etc. So I challenged myself to write a new original for each theme each week. I waited until 9pm Sunday every single week & I got some very good songs.
I did keep the music somewhat simple...or at least predictable, unlike my choices with Hook songs. I strive for unpredictability with Hook songs, I dont want them to sound like the last one. I'm making no money, nor am I thinking about them in a collectuion/CD...outside of our Fests, which are probably my favorite means of inspiration. Hook songs are just me doing what I love to do completely selfishly. I have tricks and crutches I use but I try to turn left as often as right.
Rock on!
"This seems like a really common songwriting problem. You're farting around on your guitar, keyboard, or whatever and come up with an interesting riff or chord progression. You might even have an idea for some lyrics to go with it. But, after you've repeated this riff or chord progression for several measures, where do you go next?"
Good topic 64! This is exactly the way my songs begin but it's never been a stumbling block to work it into a complete song. Once I get the riff, chord progression, or lyric/melody idea for a verse/chorus I just jam with it a bit....at least long enough to remember what I'm doing. If I don't have the time to work with it right then, I'll record a short clip to my Iphone for later. When I come back to the idea a day or weeks later is when I decide if it needs a bridge. Some songs do and some don't depending if they seem boring or repetitious to me with just verses and choruses. If I choose to add a bridge, at the very least, it needs a different melody if not chords compared to the chorus or verse.
Once I have the verses, chorus, and bridge and before I hit record is when I work on the intro and outro. I usually try to ease into the song with limited instrumentation by introducing one instrument at a time but I try to keep it short. For instance I might finger picked the intro chords for a few counts and then bring in the bass with a short harmony run with the kick drum to follow etc. I look at the outro sort of in reverse....instruments leave one at a time.
For most of my songs I follow this philosophy but not always. Sometimes I just jump right into the song and then fade it out if get stuck ;D
Farrell
i'm with Hook, suck up experiences, information etc etc, everythying and anything is grist to the mill.
personally i have no idea how to write a song, as far as i am concerned they seem to write themselves. organic creatures born out of the ether.
when i'm stuck with a work in progress and it's going nowhere, i usually find it's because what i am working on doesn't work, so i move on. tho i am sure many will think i should have did that with a few of the songs i have posted lol. i certainly do.
i'm not much help am i?
One point mentioned on the Reddit page is that several Beatles songs were created by taking an unfinished Paul song and joining it to an unfinished John song. This is something that I've often thought about in the past which might help with songwriting, although I haven't actually tried it yet. I think the lesson to be learned is that when you've got a good riff or chord progression but don't know where to go next with it, don't dwell on it too long. Instead, record what you've got so you won't forget it, then leave it. Eventually, you'll have several of these unfinished ideas and you can try to find two or more that might work well together in the same song, perhaps using one idea for the verses and the other idea for the chorus, for example. You could even try loading samples of all of your ideas into a DAW, then copying and pasting them to see which ideas work well together.
i think the moody blues did that too with their song "question". two separate ideas merged to make one great song.
Quote from: Oldrottenhead on September 09, 2016, 03:22:42 PMi think the moody blues did that too with their song "question". two separate ideas merged to make one great song.
Yes, here's what Wikipedia says about it:
The song alternates between two different melodies: a fast-paced section ("Why do we never get an answer...") and a slower one ("It's not the way that you say it when you do those things to me..."). Hayward has said that these were originally two separate half-completed songs, but he realized that with a simple chord change, he could merge the two into a single song.Seems like a great way to write more interesting songs. Two song ideas are better than one.
i must have a few hundred unfinished songs all backed up on files somewhere, please don't send me there
I know I've done that a few times. Like ORH said, "organic creatures born out of the ether."
Quote from: 64Guitars on September 09, 2016, 02:37:30 PMOne point mentioned on the Reddit page is that several Beatles songs were created by taking an unfinished Paul song and joining it to an unfinished John song. This is something that I've often thought about in the past which might help with songwriting, although I haven't actually tried it yet. I think the lesson to be learned is that when you've got a good riff or chord progression but don't know where to go next with it, don't dwell on it too long. Instead, record what you've got so you won't forget it, then leave it. Eventually, you'll have several of these unfinished ideas and you can try to find two or more that might work well together in the same song, perhaps using one idea for the verses and the other idea for the chorus, for example. You could even try loading samples of all of your ideas into a DAW, then copying and pasting them to see which ideas work well together.
64, I actually did this with my song Six Strings. I combined 3 unfinished song ideas to make one. I guess that's why it's a long one. Also it was the hardest song I've mixed ;D
Farrell
I was halfway through typing my thoughts on this & I realised there was probably a blog post in it. Not being a lyricist (or a singer) means that whatever I'm trying to express, I have to do via a melody & chord sequence alone.
Anyway... here's how I set about writing a tune.
For those of a nervous disposition...
THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT!
https://jrobsonguitar.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/my-writing-process/ (https://jrobsonguitar.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/my-writing-process/)
Quote from: Johnny Robbo on September 11, 2016, 07:07:52 AMI was halfway through typing my thoughts on this & I realised there was probably a blog post in it. Not being a lyricist (or a singer) means that whatever I'm trying to express, I have to do via a melody & chord sequence alone.
Anyway... here's how I set about writing a tune.
For those of a nervous disposition...
THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT! THEORY ALERT!
https://jrobsonguitar.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/my-writing-process/ (https://jrobsonguitar.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/my-writing-process/)
Dude, you think a lot while making music...& it's probably why your such a great player. I don't think I ever think that much. In fact it took all of my effort just to stay focused enough to read your blog
Good stuff I tried to learn years ago and had the same problem.
Quote from: Hook on September 11, 2016, 07:30:29 AMDude, you think a lot while making music...& it's probably why your such a great player.
To be honest, when I'm in the thick of it coming up with a tune, I'm not really thinking about this stuff at all... any more than I'm thinking about grammar & spelling as I type or speak. It's just kind of natural... I know what sound I'm going for and I (usually) know what ingredients are needed to realise that. Where I sometimes get stuck is when I have one of my usual crises of confidence and lose interest in whatever I'm working on because I don't think it's any good.
Fortunately, being on this site has saved more than one piece that nearly got canned for those reasons - there's always someone who can inject new life into a tune with a lyric & some vocals. It's always great to have a sounding board & that's why I value all you fellow Songcrafters :)
talking of this https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=25693.msg312732#msg312732
Quotetwo separate ideas merged to make one great song.
Just like the Moody Blues The Guess Who did it with "No Sugar Tonight" and "New Mother Nature"
re: strategies to keep it interesting
Often the chorus melody will be higher (and therefor have more energy) in pitch than the verses. And the music will have more energy. While there are exceptions, it's one of the more firm generalizations I've noticed. But HOW you do it is up to you. More distortion. Going to double time. More instruments. More voices. Using pregnant pauses to emphasize the powerful hit of the next bar.
And I agree with 64 when he says typically you want more than just a verse/chorus structure to keep a song interesting. It isn't mandatory, but I can think of a lot of folk songs that I don't particularly want to listen to because of the super repetitiveness. So how to keep a simple verse/chorus structure interesting? As 64 already said, you can add elements, intros (to the song, before each verse etc.) a middle 8 or mulitple sections (instrumental or solo or a bridge,) a pre-chorus. Or start a song with a chorus instead of a verse.
Or something that I like but don't do enough, add and subtract instruments or change up your arrangement. Slowly add in a second guitar or a keyboard part. Or a low synth pad that enters on the second verse very quietly and then increases in volume on the third verse or in the chorus. Hand percussion, shakers etc., to particular parts of a song. I just bought a mini xylophone to add some ringing parts to songs. (We'll see if I actually use it, but it was cheap so what the heck.) I like some of the songs that slowly build. Starts with guitar and then the bass comes in and then the drums on the chorus or second verse and then another guitar or backup vox on the second chorus. But how about subtracting instruments, too? It's done less often, at least in my listening. Or maybe having just bass, drums and vox for the middle 8.
They key, I think is to listen to your song or think about your idea and if it is pretty "samey" then think of ways to change it up without necessarily changing chord progression or lyric or melody, although those are options, too. A change in rhythm, structure, arrangement or voicing (what octave or range you use for a particular part) could really make a big difference. Or put another way, pull out the strength of a song that might be hidden through a lack of dynamics.