Songcrafters.org

This came from Holdempok asking for some pointers on song production and mixing. It's what I've learned the hard way, through trial and error, but it might be helpful to anyone trying to get a slightly more 'professional' mix done on their songs. I use that term loosely, because I'm no expert in these things. Anyone who has listened to Hooper's work on here will know the difference between being competent (like me) and making the production an art in itself (like him). Note: this is just the way that I do it – it's not necessarily right, and isn't very complicated. For example, I never tinker with the amp sounds or guitar effect parameters like some people do.

1.The first thing to do is think about the style and speed of the song, then create a guide rhythm track which meets your needs. Try a few 'kit' sounds to see which flavour appeals the most. I keep the metronome as an intro, then just leave the chosen pattern on step 2 to play for the rest of the song.

2.TRACK 1: Start with the rhythm guitar as the backbone of your song. For me, this tends to be acoustic guitar. I often blend the MIC and GTR to record this part, using just enough guitar signal to give the tone some depth, but relying on the MIC to make the guitar sound natural. I use 'BassCrnch' for the GTR effect and 'OnBoard1' for the MIC. I also sometimes add backing vocals 'live' whilst I'm playing. Because it's through the mic, you might have to go back afterwards and record over the start on 'GTR' to remove any noise you don't want.

3.I tend to pan the acoustic part left – usually between L25 and L30. But it seems to sound best panned left. Or maybe that's just what I like. 

4.TRACK 2: I then add some electric guitar embellishment, panned right (usually between R20-35) to give the other guitar layer some balance. It might be the same chords as track 1, but I'll do little turnarounds and have fun with the picking style etc to give it a different feel from the other guitar track. Sometimes I'll play the chords on different parts of the neck or come up with harmonies. I use a lot of the 'Nashville' and 'Twangstr' effects here, plus some 'SQR Tr' tremolo . There are so many options though. The thing here is that adding a layer of electric will make your acoustic layer really come alive – the percussive strum on Track 1 will become more prominent.

5.TRACK THREE: This is where I record the vocal – either through 'OnBoard1' or 'VoDelay1'. I always use the BR like a microphone. Again, you might need to record over unwanted noise, punch–in clicks etc with 'GTR'.

6.TRACK FOUR: Either bass, or lead guitar. Or both if you're going to bounce the tracks. I'll keep the bass panned centrally, but usually shift the lead guitar right a bit. Occasionally I'll pan the lead guitar far right, but if you're a better player than me (not hard), you can keep it central and bring it up in the mix.

7. I've got a song done. Now I'll start playing with individual track levels and panning adjustments to get the sound I'm after. Occasionally I might venture into changing the reverb on the acoustic track to give it some more depth.

8. RHYTHM: I've got my levels right, but now the drums need sorting out. This will take time, but it's worth it. You can really screw a song up if the drums are wrong. First up, for any acoustic based song, the drums are too loud as they are. I drop them to around 85 on the rhythm volume - sometimes less. Just depends what you're after. Then comes the step editing. I'll try all sorts of patterns and fills until I get it right. It takes time to keep going backwards and forwards between the song and the step edit, but it's worth it. Try different patterns for the verse and chorus parts. By doing this at the end, you can hear how the drums interact with the WHOLE song.

9. MASTERING: There is no right or wrong way on this. I've used nearly all of the pre-set effects, because they do different things to different songs. It's a case of listening to how they sound and choosing the best one for THAT song. 'Premaster' is a good catch-all effect, as it's not quite as harsh and bright as 'Mixdown'.

10. You have a song. Live with it for a while and see if you want to remix it. Then post it on the forum  ;)

Hope this helps. It's more about gut instinct and using your ears than technical prowess...  :)

Just wanted to add something...

I find recording more productive when the song has been played and honed and fully learned BEFORE you sit down to record it. Just a thought  ;)

Quote from: Greeny on February 17, 2009, 05:27:18 AMJust wanted to add something...

I find recording more productive when the song has been played and honed and fully learned BEFORE you sit down to record it. Just a thought  ;)

Yes, but what happens when you freak out as the record button is pressed?  I usually have a few rough takes to get the nerves out of the way, then everything is OK.  I have a few collegues who can play any well-rehearsed thing right the first time.  Sick.   ;D

Great step by step guide Greeny.  Thanks!

Thank you Greeny, I am going to read this carefully and see what I can take from it to improve my songs.  Thank you for this effort. :)

thanks for the inspiration-some good tips
I have a drummer friend coming over today-plan on recording-we tend go into long jams-those can produce some gems but you got to wade thru a bunch of crap to get it
 i'm gonna try more structured ideas today

Thank you so much!
I've been needing this for so long by now!

Excellent post Greeny. I'd like to add that the beauty of multi-track recording is that you can record each part seperately like you said... and as each new track gets recorded, you can start using Vtracks to re-record the previous tracks using the newer parts as inspiration. Each take gets progressively better (ideally) and can possibly be improved by playing off subsequent other parts.

For instance, you record the original acoustic rythym, then the bass. Perhaps the bass line does something interesting just before the change into the chorus and so you re-record the guitar part to add a little embelishment or maybe just stop playing there to add emphasis to the bass; and vice versa.

The song just gets better and better with each take. The trick becomes knowing when good enough is, well... good enough.

Cheers.

thanks greeney!!

Thanks Greeny!  I am printing your tips out and hopefully I can improve on some of my songs.

Quote from: upsetminded on February 17, 2009, 12:41:31 PMThanks Greeny!  I am printing your tips out and hopefully I can improve on some of my songs.

I like your Syd Barrett quote - 'Octopus' is one of my favourite songs  :)

p.s. I've done somewhere approaching 100 songs on the BR now, and I'm still learning with each new track...

Thanks Greeny!  I'm gonna print this and keep it with my manual. :)

Thanks Greeny - I haven't even read yer post yet but I'm gonna print it out anyway for a bit of late night reading 'cos I know it will be good as I dig your muzak!  PS:  If you think Barretts' 'Octopus' is good you should check out a track I heard recently entitled 'Octopus & I'!  Cool as!

Quote from: Super 8 on February 18, 2009, 02:33:32 PMThanks Greeny - I haven't even read yer post yet but I'm gonna print it out anyway for a bit of late night reading 'cos I know it will be good as I dig your muzak!  PS:  If you think Barretts' 'Octopus' is good you should check out a track I heard recently entitled 'Octopus & I'!  Cool as!

:D

It's purely coincidental I tell you!!!!

Thanks, this is great advice.
 
When I am writing a song I tend to find two drum patterns, one for the verse parts and one for the chorus (sometimes a third for a solo) . Then I record a rhythm guitar parts or bass parts for each and use the cut and paste feature to scope out the structure of the song, editing the rhythm as I go. This usually takes up the first few V spots of track1 and 2.  Then I explore some ideas with other instruments on the first few virtual spots of tracks 3 and 4.  Once I have a good idea of where I am going with the song , I go back and re record everything and put the best take (even if this is cut together from different takes) on V8 of that track. I always leave V7 empty so I can turn on and off a track easily throughout a song. This way I can isolate  a track without having to turn the volume down on all the others. This is particularly usefully if I just want to hear what one measure sounds like without the bass part since I can switch to v7 while the song is playing.

$0.02
Beleg

Great Post Greeny this will really help a plank like me ;D

QuoteI like your Syd Barrett quote - 'Octopus' is one of my favourite songs  :)

Thanks Greeny,
Part of my fascination with this song is that I just can't figure out how to play it.  Besides his constant weird strumming and timing I can't pick up what chords he's playing (most tabs I've found are wrong....Any help?

Just a note regarding the drum patterns.  Normally I work like beleg and find two patterns (verse and chorus) and then put fills in between them but recently I've been playing with just one pattern and then recording live percussion (tambourines or whatever) to do the job of the fills in marking out the song structure.  I think it gives the song a better feel but that's because it suits what I'm doing.

Just my two Australian cents and, believe me, they're not worth a lot these days.

Quote from: upsetminded on February 20, 2009, 09:37:16 AM

QuoteI like your Syd Barrett quote - 'Octopus' is one of my favourite songs  :)

Thanks Greeny,
Part of my fascination with this song is that I just can't figure out how to play it.  Besides his constant weird strumming and timing I can't pick up what chords he's playing (most tabs I've found are wrong....Any help?

Same here... I'd love to play it, but can't work out what the hell he's doing!  :D

I really enjoyed reading this guide. Good work!

i find .................hic

more good info

Quote from: Greeny on February 17, 2009, 05:27:18 AMJust wanted to add something...

I find recording more productive when the song has been played and honed and fully learned BEFORE you sit down to record it. Just a thought  ;)

Oh - that will never do, most of mine are still "work in progress" or "under development" when I press record.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Oh thanks Greeny - I've made notes, you always have such a rich and full sound to your recordings. Just a couple of questions on the presets - I've got a BR-80 and I don't appear to have any of the presets you mention

Mic - OnBoard1 or VoDelay1 (nope)

Gtr - BassCrnch (nope)

are they add ons, have I got an old system even though I bought the BR in April?

Thanks and for all us Newbees I hope other people share their knowledge too.

Quote from: Hilary on July 22, 2012, 08:39:54 AMOh thanks Greeny - I've made notes, you always have such a rich and full sound to your recordings. Just a couple of questions on the presets - I've got a BR-80 and I don't appear to have any of the presets you mention

Mic - OnBoard1 or VoDelay1 (nope)

Gtr - BassCrnch (nope)

are they add ons, have I got an old system even though I bought the BR in April?

Greeny has the now-discontinued Micro BR which was released in 2006. You have the BR-80 which was released just last year. They're not the same thing and don't have the same preset effects patches. However, most of the effects underlying those preset patches are the same or very similar, so you should be able to create similar patches on the BR-80. See this document (https://songcrafters.org/64guitars/BR/Docs/Micro_BR_Preset_Effect_Patches.pdf) for details of all of the patches in the Micro BR.

You will have to make some allowances for the differences between the original Micro BR and the BR-80. For instance, the Micro BR's BassCrnc patch (guitar preset 79) uses the COSM GTR AMP algorithm. The BR-80 doesn't have the COSM GTR AMP algorithm but you can use the E.GUITAR MULTI algorithm which is very similar. The Micro BR has separate effects for Preamp and Speaker Sim. The BR-80 combines these into a single effect called Amp. The Micro BR's Compressor is part of the FX effect, whereas the compressor in the BR-80 is a separate effect.

The vocal effects will be a bit trickier to simulate because the BR-80 lacks the Micro BR's Enhancer effect. But you should be able to make a patch that's somewhat similar. I'd start with the BR-80's internal microphone patches (preset patches 156 to 160) and adjust the settings as close as possible to those of the Micro BR patch you want to simulate.

Oh thanks 64G, I'll look into it x

Phew! Thanks 64guitars - you answered this in a logical, practical and informative way that I simply wouldn't have been able to match, lol !!!

I'll be using the old MBR until it gives up the ghost.

I think with a lot of the patches, it's down to personal preference, and what suits YOUR style of music / vocals. As I've sadi before, trial and error is a very good thing, as you get to 'audition' a lot of tones and settings before you settle on your own optimum 'sound'

Hey all... not trying to hijack rather add to Greeny's already great break down of the recording process... I've found a site that offers some really great tutorials... The tutorial I'm in right now "Mixing Bootcamp" provides a wealth of info about Eq'ing/ Verbs/ Delays/ Comp/ Limiting and so on... It is all perform'd in pro tools... but if you listen to it... there are a bunch of techniques that will help you in mastering your masterpiece!!! (He also gives out some secrets the pro's use) I'm almost through every segment and I gained so much from this... Priceless info!!!!

https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=15795.0

Quote from: Rata-tat-tat on July 23, 2012, 01:08:27 PMHey all... not trying to hijack rather add to Greeny's .....
https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=15795.0

Total Hijack. Shame!
 Good stuff here all around. I should read more, and then apply what I read. I do alot but I don't really know if I ever do it any better!
Rock On!

Quote from: Hook on July 23, 2012, 01:41:11 PM

Quote from: Rata-tat-tat on July 23, 2012, 01:08:27 PMHey all... not trying to hijack rather add to Greeny's .....
https://songcrafters.org/community/index.php?topic=15795.0

Total Hijack. Shame!
 Good stuff here all around. I should read more, and then apply what I read. I do alot but I don't really know if I ever do it any better!
Rock On!

I'm shameless.... I still luv ya Tim!!! LOL

Quote from: Greeny on July 23, 2012, 07:09:54 AMI'll be using the old MBR until it gives up the ghost.

Thinking the same thing - The only thing I worry about is the internal mic, condensation, dust, etc.

Oh, that and the undo button breaking ;D

Quote from: launched on July 24, 2012, 11:50:23 PMOh, that and the undo button breaking ;D

Tim

This is priceless info, bro.

U R the Man.

Has your process changed much since you first posted this?

Quote from: Nelson on July 28, 2012, 11:25:19 AMTim

This is priceless info, bro.

U R the Man.

Has your process changed much since you first posted this?

Thanks!

I'm not a tinkering or tweaking kind of guy (lol), so this process is still pretty much how I do it. I'm only ever interested in getting the song down as close to what I have in my head as possible.

It's got easier now, because I'm so familiar with the MBR patches, tones and rhythms that I just know 'where to go' straight away when recording.

Things have also got a bit more complex now I'm adding piano and Thumbjam parts, but that's just really a case of trying to get the right separation, balance and panning for each layer.

Your stuff would still sound good if I recorded it on my phone, lol

good stuff Greeny....except at track 4  I keep adding tracks....ridiculous some times...