Any advice on recording an electronic kit with a BR1600?

[Super 8]

Just got hold of a Roland V-Drums kit for a good price. I can't really play drums if I'm honest but I'm certainly having some fun with it and I'll give anything a go! Does anybody else here use V-Drums? In particular I'd be interested to hear how folks record 'em! I'm not into the whole MIDI controller thing so am looking to record using the standard stereo 1/4" outs (probably in stereo although the kit's Left output enables you to record the entire kit just in Mono I think - a cool option if you're say tight on tracks or you just fancy 'doing a Spector' or whatever!) Anyway, I'm wondering how best to bring them into my machine. I'll be looking to record them on my BR1600 but that's as far as I've got. Would I bring them in on say the dedicated stereo drum machine tracks 15/16 using 'Stereo' input (as opposed to 'Guitar/Bass'/'Vox' or SIMUL? Is there a dedicated preset(s) that would sound good with V-Drums? (Sorry if this post seems a bit ... rambling, I don't know what I'm talking about! I'm just used to using the built-in drum machine in the BR1600 so this is all new to me and something I haven't thought about ... until now. If you can make some kind of sense of this post then any advice would be great!) Having never done anything with 'played in' electronic drums before, I'm particularly curious as to how to treat/process this kind of input (if at all?) so any thoughts on what BR presets might work for V-Drums would again be much appreciated! CHEERS!     

[AndyR]

Initially I'd treat them just like a keyboard/synth.

I'd take the stereo out from the drum module and feed it into the 7/8 inputs (they're labelled Mix In or something on the back?)

Then I'd select Stereo input. Two things to do right then before anything else:

1. Check the other inputs 1-6, you want them muted.
2. Switch OFF the effects before you hit anything - Stereo input selects some Fat Compression preset by default, it ALWAYS sounds "omigod my poor speakers/headphones/ears!!"

After that, arm a stereo pair of tracks, either the dedicated ones like 15/16, 13/14, etc, or a pair of monos like 7/8 - wherever you've got room. If you want to use the BR1600 drum machine to provide a click track to play along with, 15/16 won't be available. I don't know whether the metronome comes from the drum machine, I never use it.

If you want to record mono, you must arm one of 1-8 for recording (that's how I record most of my electric guitars, bass, and keyboards - they're all coming in via a mixing desk into 7/8. I select STEREO and arm a mono track - most of those instruments I want recorded mono so that I get a better stereo mix - drums I usually want stereo, though)

Set your levels and record.

If the Roland sound module has a stereo mix, that's where I'd start.

BUT!

Does it have any other outputs? Eg, haven't used it in a while, but the Alesis SR16 drum machine has at least one assignable output in addition to the stereo left/right. If the Roland's sound module does that, then you might want to separate off the snare or kick?

To do that, you have to record MULTI and have free mono tracks on 1-8. Eg I'd put left and right into 7 and 8, and the separate snare into 6. When you record MULTI, the inputs go to the same track numbers - you have to make sure you arm the right tracks. If you arm an extra track by accident, you'll wipe what's on there already.

If the Roland sound module is real clever, it would have a bunch of assignable outputs. In that case I might record them all MULTI. I'd have a layer of virtual tracks across 1-8 dedicated to the drum kit.

If I'd recorded MULTI, I'd do a bounce of a rough stereo mix of the drums to 15/16, keeping extensive notes on how I did it. I'd use that rough mix to record the other instruments against, then at proper mix time I might have to remix the drums. I'd use the extensive notes to set up the original, and then tweak to get the sound I want (I'd probably have created rough mix of the rest of the band as a reference to mix against  )

HOWEVER - if Roland's stereo mix isn't too bad... I probably go with that

[Super 8]

Switch OFF the effects before you hit anything - Stereo input selects some Fat Compression preset by default, it ALWAYS sounds "omigod my poor speakers/headphones/ears!!" ....

...... HOWEVER - if Roland's stereo mix isn't too bad... I probably go with that

Thanks for all that Andy - GREAT! My V-DRums only appear to have MIDI out or 1/4" L&R so, as I'll be recording the sounds in the brain from the kit, I guess I'm stuck with the stereo mix output it gives you ie: no separate snare or kick outputs. (That said, the Roland stereo spread in my cans sounds pretty decent to my ears so fingers crossed it'll sit well in a mix 'as is' - I don't seem to have much choice on this front).

As for the point you made about switching the default compression off are you saying it's best to record a kit like this without processing then ie: just run with the straight kit sound that comes from the Roland brain and don't worry about sticking it through any of the onboard BR1600 processing?   

[AndyR]

I'd see what it sounded like first. I do tend to record everything with a hard Lo Cut, around 50hz - that includes keyboards and drum parts. I know that's going to happen during my mixing, so I found it's easier to put it on as I record.

I'd probably be using that Multi Effect patch I was talking about the other day. Initially with just the Lo Cut on, but as I get to know the instrument, I might learn some EQ tricks I always use in a mix - so I end up applying them when recording it.

However, for drums - whole kit in stereo - I'm not sure I've got many tricks I ALWAYS use on the BR drum machine kit. I've got some little boosts at 100 and 200Hz  - but they're going on the whole kit, so sometimes it doesn't work. I've definitely kept away from compressing the main drum track because I don't trust myself to spot when I've buggered the cymbals. If I have a mono snare or kick track, I'll play with compression then.

I think I'd be hoping the Roland's stock sound is pretty good with my fingers crossed! I assume it's got several kits to choose from? There's bound to be something you can use. In my case, I have the Alesis SR16, which I haven't used since I got the BR1600, that has FABULOUS kits on board and I've had to map it for MIDI before using a DAW... so although I don't fancy that, I did once and lived... so I know it could be used as the sound source triggered by the Roland.

Although, I'm listening to 60s Bee Gees right now - that's where my roots are - and the way drums got handled then are making me wonder whether I've got more to learn (well, obviously, there's always more ). Perhaps it is just take what's coming out, make sure there's enough top end to cut through, and some body lower down to work with the bottom end (bass, keyboard left hand, whatever) - and then just whack it in the mix somewhere.

Anyway, over all, I like recording the sounds I hear coming from the instrument, not messing with them on the mixing desk or the BR effects on the way in. I get that down "on tape" so that I can mess with it later. If I was just the engineer, I'd probably use effects and EQ on the way in a lot more. But because I'm playing it too, it's easier not to worry about that at that tracking stage. The two main things I use on tracking are the Lo Cut I mentioned, and a compressor on sources that might peak and mess up an otherwise fabulous take (vocals, guitar, bass) - the compressor is probably set close to limiting - just to protect the top so I don't find clipping later. Synth stuff - piano, organ, etc, and the drums I use - don't seem to need the protection of compressor.

All my messing comes afterwards, most of it EQ and compression. As long as you don't clip on the way in, I see no reason why compression shouldn't get used later instead. And it's a lot easier to hear what the compression is doing if you're not singing the part at the same time!

I need to start cooking in a minute (for the soon to arrive missus!), but it's just crossed my mind - you are aware that these effects patches can be used before, after, during, aren't you? If not, there's a LOCATION setting on the effects edit screen, check it out - you can apply the current effect to inputs, tracks, stereo master. I take big advantage of that, I leave effects choices to as late as possible in the proceedings! So I record as "dry" as possible and then apply the effects later when I know what I want.

The way I do little groups of parts and then bounce them as a submix, I've just realised what I'm doing - I get the performances, whatever they are, down as clean as I can as the musician having to do his own engineering. Then I put the engineer/producer hat on, and I treat all the parts as live incoming stuff and "record" them via the effects and EQ.

[Super 8]

.... it's just crossed my mind - you are aware that these effects patches can be used before, after, during, aren't you? If not, there's a LOCATION setting on the effects edit screen, check it out - you can apply the current effect to inputs, tracks, stereo master. I take big advantage of that, I leave effects choices to as late as possible in the proceedings! So I record as "dry" as possible and then apply the effects later when I know what I want.

The way I do little groups of parts and then bounce them as a submix, I've just realised what I'm doing - I get the performances, whatever they are, down as clean as I can as the musician having to do his own engineering. Then I put the engineer/producer hat on, and I treat all the parts as live incoming stuff and "record" them via the effects and EQ.

That's the ticket right there! CHEERS ANDY. Off to experiment .........

[Super 8]

You are aware that these effects patches can be used before, after, during, aren't you? If not, there's a LOCATION setting on the effects edit screen, check it out - you can apply the current effect to inputs, tracks, stereo master. I take big advantage of that, I leave effects choices to as late as possible in the proceedings! So I record as "dry" as possible and then apply the effects later when I know what I want.

Would you mind explaining how you go about this Andy. I did some test recordings last night whereby I recorded some guitar hearing the FX but not printing it to the take (leaving me with a 'dry' track you speak of). Am I right in thinking that, once I've showcased effects to find the preset I want to use (rather than just picking one at the recording stage) I then need to copy the dry track with chosen effect preset to another track?? As you can probably gather, I'm not exactly sure how to effect dry tracks especially if I record a load of tracks dry (like say Vox, B Vocals, Acoustic, etc) and I want to effect all of them (differently) at the mixing stage. Again, any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated! 

[AndyR]

Ah... If you want to use insert effects patches to effect several tracks, differently, after recording them... I'm afraid you'll have to do each separately because you can't run more than one insert effect at a time. So you'd be bouncing one dry track, through the effect, to a wet copy, I guess. If you want to use lots of different effects, that would be a bit time consuming... I'd probably start recording things wet!

What sort of effects are we talking about? I've just realised I don't use the insert effects that much... Just the MULTI-CHANNEL one that lets me put Lo Cut, Compressor, EQ on each of 8 channels. Occasionally I might use a guitar one, but not very often now - I have several different amp modellors on hand. If I did use a guitar effect, I'd definitely record wet.

The BR effects I use most are the track specific ones:

Compressors & Equalizers (Manual pp108-111)
- these ones only apply to playback of the tracks.
- these are what I use most
- with compressors, I try to avoid needing them on tracks 9-16, switching to 9-16 buggers the 1-8 settings! Logical really, but always catches me out

And what they call Loop Effects:

Reverb & Chorus/Delay/Doubling (Manual pp112-115)
- these ones can be used on input (but aren't printed on the track you're recording) or on playback, it's an effects send/return thing
- I use lots of different Reverbs most, different ones on different instrument/vocals. So I'll plan sub mix bounces based on the reverb I want to use on a group of performances
- I sometimes use doubling when bouncing backing vocal submixes
- I don't use chorus or delay that much, maybe chorus on a bass, maybe delay to thicken backing vocal choirs

I use the Insert MULTI-CHANNEL for
* Lo Cut filtering (on input or playback, whatever I need)
* Compression on input to prevent clipping
* EQ on input if I know what I want, or extra EQ on playback when the track specific 3-band isn't enough.

Just been reading the manual (p112) - looks like, on track playback, the insert effects (the effects patches) come AFTER the track Compressors, BEFORE the track Equalizers, which are before the sends to Reverb and Chorus/Delay/Doubling.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that this all works for me because of how I arrange and record stuff. I do things in groups which need to be submixed to stereo, with their final reverb/wotever effect. These are "guitars", "keys", "backing vox", "drums". My final mixes involve mixing the submixes together, adding in the lead voices (lead vox, bass, lead guitar) during that last bounce. I might need to tweak the EQ of the submixes as I mix them together (eg take some bottom off the guitars and add it to the keys for a better sound), but they don't get anything else at that stage.

[Super 8]

You certainly seem to know your onions when it comes to all things BR1600 ANdy! You sure sound like you've got a handle on it & make it work 'for you'! Thanks again for taking the time to explain all this to me! I need to up my game and understand my means of production a bit more in order to be able to realise the sounds in my head! With superb advice like this hopefully I can achieve my aim (and 'my' sound!) Thanks again mate! PS: If there's anything you ever need to know about growing tomatoes don't hesitate to give me a shout. ROCK'nROLL!