Song writing.....

[The Reverend 48]

As you know I can play a bit and know a little theory
I want to spread my wings and begin to construct my own songs
I am aware that they need a structure
but how do you go about deciding how to get from a riff idea to creating verse to chorus and even bridge
any thoughts ideas experience greatly appreciated...........

[oldrottenhead]

one way of doing this is recording the riff you have in mind for a few bars then leaving a gap for a few bars coming in with your riff again then leaving another gap etc. the playing back and at the gaps just experiment to see if you can come up with a change that fits. am stuck for time (at work) but i would have for example an into  for about 4 bars then the riff for four or eight bars as a verse, then 4 or 8bars for a chorus back into verse then do something different for 4 bars to break things up then verse chorus outro. but as always there are no rules the world is your oyster.

[OsCKilO]

Songs need a structure

Lol

[SteveB]

48 - If your intended songs are to have Lyrics, then a good idea is to have a note pad handy (in fact several dotted about your person and abode!), and jot down any word or phrase that catches your ear from everyday experiences. A practical application might be for you to construct a song around one of your backers, then at least you have an in-place structure to work with. But as others have said, there are no hard and fast rules to songwriting itself. However, beyond that, there certainly are considerations to keep in mind. (Not very likely), but if all your songs were to contain 3 power chords played repetitively for 10 minutes, then it won't take an Einstein to work out what sort of audience may find your songs appealing. Equally, solo piano and voice probably won't have a lasting fan-base with grizzled rockers!! Er, good luck.

[Bluesberry]

My advice is to take 3-5 songs that you really like and listen to these over and over and analyze them, write it down, what is going on, chorus, verse, bridge, where is the solo placed.  Analyze them.  Then write a song in a similar structure.  Don't copy it but use the model to get your first song done.  This is how I started, my first song was modeled on some Alt.country stuff I really liked (Blue Rodeo in particular).  Once you get one song under your belt you can experiment a bit more.  You have to start somewhere.  Many, many songwriters have started out this way and about 3-4 songs in developed their own style.  It is like studying the songs you like and figuring out why they work and why you like them.  Go for it Mike, writing songs has become one of the most rewarding things I can think of to do, it is really fun stuff to create something from nothing.

[Diego Ayala]

Excellent discussion/post!  I have been trying to do jsut this with a lot of my songs after Jim added lyrics to some of my songs - and indicated the same thing - to add diversity to a song!  Problem I'm having is that i have a lot of songs i hace composed and played for so many years that it is hard to try to add a bridge or maybe even change to add chorus.

You would figure that after 40 +++ years of listening to music i woudl have this figured out on my own compositions --- the thing is that before joining this forum i had never realy sat down to think about these things!

I am just goign to have to get serious and just take one song theat Jim has added lyrics to it and see how can i add some other changes...

Cool

Thanks 48 for bringin it up!  I want to "Greeny"-up my music!!!

[oldrottenhead]

I want to "Greeny"-up my music!!!

dont we all lol

[Sprocket]

What kind of song do you want to write?
With my song project, I just used a typical 12 bar structure with the I,IV,V, strum out the chords, maybe record a shuffle over those chords, do a riff pattern in the same 12 bar structure ending each of the riffs on that chords root note or even back to the I(key root).
At this point the riffs begin to come out of the wood work, I may even do the same riff in a different location on the fretboard...or do partial implied riffs.
By now you should have a sweet backer to solo over and enough key riffs to keep coming back to through out.

I hope this was some help, Ive really been studying up in the books lately and this seems to work for me, so far. YMMV

[edit]After you record your 12 bar rhythm or riff, copy that track and then move it to where ever you want, as many times as you want. This made my song super easy.

[The Reverend 48]

Thanks 48 for bringin it up!  I want to "Greeny"-up my music!!!

I can only dream...it would take more help than a simple looper

Seriously thanks for your comments they are all really helping me get my head round this………
ORH ; That sounds like where I will start from thanks
T and SteveB: I think I need a structure because this is all alien to me the lyrics will come later……
BB; sound advice I will start listening to stuff with different ears
Sprocket: I can play and hear 12 bar sequences in my sleep
This is to hopefully help me break out from my beloved blues

So If I can push this further I
Say the drum pattern would be static (I’m not taking on changing drum patterns yet)
And I wanted to have a simple structure of verse chorus verse chorus
and picked a riff for the verse of say Am Dm G which I think is in the key of C (or Am)
how would you go about adding a chorus or even adding a bridge
Please forgive me if this is all bollocks I’m just trying to understand where I go to next and so far this is really useful
Thanks Again

[T.C. Elliott]

The most common ( this is a debatable point, but for our discussion we'll assume it's true) structure is verse/chorus.  The most common verse chorus structure consists of 8 bars each of verse and chorus. If I were you I'd do a rhythm pattern for a song structure consisting of an intro of 4 bars then 8 bars for a verse and 8 bars for a chorus then repeat. I'd alternate the pattern on the editor for the verses and choruses. The most important thing is to find a pattern that fits the riff you are working with. Solo something over your 4 bars intro before each verse and then try to write a lyric and melody more or less at the same time to the verse section and the chorus section. Generally speaking 3 verses and 3 choruses work. 2 verses and three choruses with a solo section before the last chorus works as well. A bridge section can be used instead of a third verse or just before the solo.

Remember at this point we are writing not recording. It doesn't matter what it sounds like as long as you get the idea down. You are gonna re-record once the song is written so you have a demo or a worktape of the finished song.

The best thing to do, imo, is to listen to the best popular songs of the 60's. Pay attention to song structure. Ie, when the solo happens, how many verses, how many times the chorus repeats etc.

I would also suggest you join up at FAWM.org ( http://fawm.org ) next January and participate next February. Yes you'll likely not be doing great songs your first attempt but there are lots of people to help you write and encourage you. It's less a critique site and more of a cheerleading site, which is very important when you begin to write songs.

I've written over 150 songs in the last 2 years  and some of them are even half way decent. I'm still learning.

If you are serious about song writing and are also interested in the business of it I'd highly recommend the book "The Craft and Business of Songwriting" by Braheny
It's a good book on either subject but the best one I've found on both combined.
There are also some blogs on the net that would be helpful. If you are interested I'll try to get them in order and post a list of the ones I like the most. Tom Slatter's comes to mind. I also started a blog about songwriting but it's brand new and so far the posts are more about my love of music more than actual songwriting. I'm gonna start at the very beginning and work my way up. I'll try to remember to post a link when I get some done.

[Davo]

I consider the mood and tone of my verse, and go from there.  Sometimes I do it half time or even double time.

Whatever I do it has to flow or it just does not sound good.

[tony]

So If I can push this further I
Say the drum pattern would be static (I’m not taking on changing drum patterns yet)
And I wanted to have a simple structure of verse chorus verse chorus
and picked a riff for the verse of say Am Dm G which I think is in the key of C (or Am)
how would you go about adding a chorus or even adding a bridge
Please forgive me if this is all bollocks I’m just trying to understand where I go to next and so far this is really useful
Thanks Again

In your first post you said that you wanted to get from 'a riff idea to creating verse to chorus and even bridge'.  I think that is a good way to go but try to separate that riff from what you said above, 'a riff for the verse of say Am Dm G'.   Even if a riff comes to you with a chord progression attached, try to separate it off and think of it as a little bit of melody all on its own and then try to harmonize it in different ways.  If you can harmonise it in two different ways then that might be the basis of your verse and chorus.

In the example above, Am Dm G, that is going to lead back to C (assuming that we are thinking in C) and that will give a vi-ii-V-I, which is about the commonest progression in the world outside of folk and blues.  But without it your melody could go a lot of ways.  And, if you want to get away from your beloved blues as you say above, stay away from those sevenths for a while.

I think Rikky Rooksby's The Song Writing Sourcebook is very good and particularly on structure.

Good luck, 48, and thanks for a good thread.

[Greeny]

This is a big subject - and having written hundreds of songs, I'm firmly of the opinion that there's no right or wrong answer, just a myriad of different approaches that you could take. For me, it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you have a song at the end of it!

Starting with a riff is a perfectly fine way of writing. But then you have to make a decision on where the riff is going to fit into the song. This could vary - e.g. it could be the intro and verse, it could just be the chorus, or it could be a refrain running through the verses and choruses. Angus Young and Keith Richards are masters of how to base songs around riffs. This is where all the Jemima's Kite songs largely come from.

Then you will have a song like 'Sweet Dreams' by Eurythmics which has no real structure, just a recurring chant. But it really works.

I tend to have three parts to my songs... verse, bridge, chorus. It's important that either the verse or chorus has a good melody (if not both!), but you can get away with one. I tend to use the bridge to build the tension and launch a big chorus from, but you can also take it down. Another thing that works well is to have the same chords in the verse as the chorus, but sing a totally different melody over them. This has worked really well for me.

Songs for me are all about moments of inspiration, whether that's a riff, a title, or a tune in my head. Keep a notebook and the BR handy!

Good luck... although I'm so late on this post that you've probably already done it!

[Tangled Wires]

Totally concur with what Greeny has said on the subject. I personally never sit down and write a song, something will come to me whilst playing, whether it be a chord structure, a guitar riff or a bass line that I will like the sound of. I then find the tempo that I want it to be played at, select one a standard drum pattern on the BR, and start recording it. Once you start added other parts to this, you then start to get a feel for the structure of the song.

After I have finished the music, I often wonder how I got to where I did with it and how it ended up like it did!

Just go with your instincts on it, is about the best advice I can provide!

[StevieM]

There's no way I can comment on the playing side of this, I'm not like you clever lot, I can't do all the rhythm and all that and make up the music side of stuff.
About all I'll say is about the words side of things and thi sis only how I try to do it, everyone else has their way.
I'm never without a pad and pen somewhere ( or scrap of paper/wood/anything), so if I just think of a few words, sometimes just a title, I write it down. Occassionaly there'll be a whole song comes out in one go, most of the time not, sometimes those odd couple of words or sentences turn into something, sometimes not. There must be thousands of little scraps of whatever laying around somewhere!!!!!

When I do get something complete, it's just a question of re-writing to get verse/chorus, in any order as it seems to fit. There are some on here who can just come out with a whole track in one go, all in the right order, and sing it, just like that.
And we ALL know who they are

You listen to some tracks they even seem to have the chorus as the 1st verse ( if you see what I mean?

Where do ideas come from? Anywhere!!!!!! Bit's out of books, something someone says, maybe overheard conversation, bits off the tv, odd words on other tracks-----and on and on and on.

Dire Straits Money for Nothing came from an overheard conversation in somewhere like MFI.

Where does inspiration come from? Who knows? It's all totaly personal.  Phil Collins In the Air Toinght supposedly started from a noodle drum riff ( are they called riffs in drumming?)

This probably doesn't help in the slightest